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Uh, funny how you make a little comment and you find a whole thread the next day :)

So, ok. My comment was a bit too concise for its own good. I wasn't thinking of a geopolitical breakdown à la USSR but of rampant arnarchy with a destabilized/delegitimized central government. In itself, it would a Sino-Chinese problem and none of our business. The real issue would be that the central power would probably try to restore its hold by upping the ante, for instance to turn to ultra-nationalism and militarism.

And BTW, China has not been united for the past 5,000 years. Its history is much more complex with many invasions and a succession of foreign rulers. To the point that many things we consider as typically Chinese are actually Manchu, brought fairly recently (17th century AD) by the Qing, the last imperial dynasty.

The main theme of China's history is this permanent fight between centralized power and centrifuge forces, splitting the country apart. You need to know that if you want to understand a bit the utter strangeness that sometimes surrounds the relations between the PRC and Taiwan.
by Francois in Paris on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 07:25:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He, he, isn't that what this is all about?  to write about an interesting topic, comment on it and let others ponder and dialog over it?  :)

I just wanted to add the reason why I don't think it is likely that China split up into smaller regions.

China consists mostly of Han Chinese (about 91% of the population) and the rest of 55 other nationalities. But these nationalities are too small in size and so dispersed throughout China that a claim to an area would be impossible, except for Tibet, Taiwan and possibly Inner Mongolia.

Now, the Manchu's were highly sceptical to the Han Chinese when coming to power in 1644 and tried to force Manchu traditions upon them, but this failed and today the Manchu and the Han cultures and traditions are very much entwined, so much to the fact that the Manchu's are now in a minority although a significant one to the Hans in what was known as the old "Manchurian" areas. That could pretty much explain the confusion over what's Chinese (Han) and what's Manchu traditions. (The Han Chinese derives their name from the Han Dynasty and is a bit misleading because there is a wide diversity of distinct cultural and linguistic groups within that concept, but they are not big enough to define them as ethnically different).

Yes, the Chinese history are ridden with tensions and conflicts mostly warlords fighting it out with each other and sometimes with the central power. And that is why I do agree with you on this point. The rapid economic growth and accumulation of wealth with seemingly little or no fair distribution, China will risk having more of these rebellions.  With an ever increasing part of the population moving into the cities the risk would increase even more, even if the Chinese Government have made plans for a massive export of Chinese labour in the years to come possibly to stem the tied of unskilled labour coming into the cities.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 10:40:43 AM EST
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I wouldn't say that the Manchu failed. They were, err... very forceful sometimes. But yes, it's the funny story about China. They always managed to absorb and assimilate their invaders one way or the other. Smart.

To come back to the subject at hand, those riots, what's the most probable outcome? I see three cases and I have no clue which one is the most likely:
  • The current fascists in place manage to hold the lid on the pressure cooker and maintain themselves in power, same old, same old.
  • Unrest grows and China spirals in a repressive vicious circle. The central government becomes ever more authoritarian and possibly ever more belligerent outside its borders as an escape valve for popular anger.
  • Unrest grows and, in conjunction with a middle class that's no longer content to just work and consume, forces at least some measure of democratization (the one outcome all would prefer, I presume).
It's widely believed that Tienanmen pretty killed the first wave of democratic movements in China but is the situation really so politically frozen?

Anyone with direct, recent experience in PRC is welcome to comment.
by Francois in Paris on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 05:40:23 PM EST
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Good comment - but I will disagree with your third variant: contrary to conventional wisdom (or is it more just the neoliberal consensus?), I will expect a force for change not from the middle-class. The middle class is precisely that: the have-somes who will defend the status quo in hopes for some more material gains.

I think if democratisation will be forced on the regime, it will all come from the migrant workers.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:13:24 PM EST
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That's why I say
... with a middle class that's no longer content to just work and consume ...

I know that CW is that the middle class is still very content with working and consuming. And if the middle class doesn't budge, we can kiss goodbye to option 3. I can't imagine a democratic movement without strong support in the middle class.

But, I've personally noticed something funny, when I had the opportunity to rub elbows with a few billionaires (yep, real ones, very big names) on a work/social relation when I was working in the US. Nice guys, no reason to resent them a bit, I'm not of an envious nature and yet, you can't help, somewhere in the back of your mind... I'm definitively not one of them and I know it.

The middle class is the most likely to be angry at the ultra-wealthy if things get bumpy for them. They see them, they understand the situation and they know they won't get there. Happiness is relative.
by Francois in Paris on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:30:17 PM EST
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That's why I say  ... with a middle class that's no longer content to just work and consume ...

What I meant is that the middle class will not become not content. But, with what you added, I too have to qualify: if the Chinese middle class loses the illusion that they too can get super-rich, or feels that it stagnates or even loses what it already has, then they too will join the forces for change. Still, I don't think they would be central to it.

I can't imagine a democratic movement without strong support in the middle class.

Hm, that would be standard neoliberal theory. But in a country where the middle class constitutes only 10-15% of the population, they are neither necessary nor sufficient as a basis for democracy. (Same goes for India.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 06:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agree: in China's context (about which I know little, let's be honest), I would certainly not see the threat of the middle-class in its mass, as it would work in our countries where, right or wrong, at least 60 or 70% of the population considers itself as middle-class.

IMHO, its threat would rather be as a structuring element, a vanguard to use Marxist-Leninist jargon. When I parse through news articles on social unrest in China, I'm always shocked by how pragmatic, down to earth the claims are. The protesters want specific things: rescinding an abusive tax , the shutdown of a polluter, the money they were promised, etc. There is no overall conceptual demand, no political conscience, to go back to good old Marxism. They remain the lumpen-proletariat of Marxism lore, incapable of a revolution. If you throw educated members of the middle-class, that could change towards building actual political movements.

Again, not really knowing what I'm talking about, but I would hypothesize that something important happened to the power structure in China in the past 20 years. The Maoists were afraid of the intellectual class and made sure to bypass it and maintain their powerbase on army and skilled workers while keeping the peasantry at least moderately happy. Now, it looks like they have reverted willy-nilly to a more traditional authoritarian structure - high bourgeoisie -> middle-class -> working class/lumpen - the type most susceptible to revolutions because of the uncertain loyalty of the middle class to the high bourgeoisie.

PS: Same goes for India Except India is a real democracy and has democratic means to resolve conflicts that China doesn't have. For an anecdotal evidence, you should have a look at this NY Times article on highway building in India. It's slow, it's clunky but it works and people buy into it at every level. Why? Because of democracy, they can't bulldoze their way through. They have to negotiate. At a 30 years horizon, I'm betting on India rather than China.
by Francois in Paris on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 07:53:33 PM EST
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I'm not sure that China has ever been centralised in the sense that we seem to expect: the power structure really seems to be a central hierarchy with diminishing control as you move away from the centre. While in theory the chaps in the centre are in charge there is a lot of leeway for local officials who actually move the orders and reports back and forth.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 05:38:10 PM EST
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This has been my experience and that's why I suggest there may be some kind of breakup, or rather a subsiding into regions.

The regional governments have quite a level of competition and the coastal regions have a large prosperity gap with the western areas.

The centre has the army, but the regions are working on that. This will be the key issue in the medium term, naturally enough.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2005 at 07:12:24 PM EST
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