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For one - and I am not speaking from floyd's mouth but my own.
As a Native Canadian (with Cree status) who is half Dutch - I resent that you fire at people who dare to bring the legitimacy of our history into comparison as somehow 'less' than that of the holocaust and label those who dare bring in the millions of Gays and Gypsies who were slaughtered alongside the Jews into the argument as somehow being anti-anti-anti-anything.
My people, historically, were raped, and killed, systematically not long ago.
Jewish people don't hold the 'brand' of wholesale slaughter and the holocaust. It's history that should be never forgotten but it's not exclusive to the Tribe of Israel. Atlantic Free Press
However, you mention "millions" of Gays and Gypsies who were slaughtered along with the Jews. It's absolutely true that the Nazis targeted these groups and murdered a great many. But I don't see what purpose is served by talking about millions. That is not historical at all. Millions of Jews were murdered. The main thrust of the murderous Nazi impulse was directed towards the goal of exterminating the Jews.
Lastly, what do you mean by "Thou shalt not comment"?
5.1-6.0 million Jews, including 3.0-3.5 million Polish Jews[9] 1.8 -1.9 million Gentile Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10] 200,000-800,000 Roma & Sinti 200,000-300,000 people with disabilities 10,000-25,000 homosexual men 2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
The jews were not the only group that was specifically targeted for extermination.
Horrible as the persecution of gay men under the Third Reich was, it does NOT qualify as a Holocaust. Only about 50,000 of Germany's millions of gay men were imprisoned, and, as you point out, less than half of this number died.
I would also argue that the Nazis did not kill "all those [gay men] they could get their hands on." Not only did most German gay men survive the Nazi regime; Nazis never bothered to incarcerate even "known" Slavic homosexuals since there was no "danger" of their damaging the supposedly superior Aryan gene pool.
Saying that the holocaust is no worse than the many massacres of other ethnicities or people that have taken place throughout history does attempt to reduce it as a more banal and/or mundane act of war, which it (and the parallel murder of gypsies and homosexuals) is not. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
Most of the world cheered in 1992 to 'celebrate' the beginning of the demise of Europe's rape of the Americas and systematic genocide of its people.
We had to watch 'specials' on TV.
Can you imagine that with the holocaust?
The irony is - Columbus was not the first - the Vikings were or maybe even the Chinese.
So let's segue into another subject. And see if I get labelled again.
From Daily Kos. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/19/114321/175#16
Hard to believe, but the Jerusalem Post is reporting that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) are ready to attack Iran's nuclear facilities: IAF [i.e., Israeli Air Force] pilots have completed their mission training and fighter jets have been prepared for an Israeli attack on Iran, the British Sunday Times reported. More after the fold . . . * Steven D's diary :: :: * The article reported that "the elite 69 strategic F-15 I squadron" had been equipped with weapons that will be tested in combat for the first time, and that two missile submarines were on standby: one in the Persian Gulf and the second in Haifa Bay. The Times also said that special IDF forces would be helicoptered into Iran to take out targets that could not be destroyed in an air strike. [...] Col. [res] Ze'ev Raz, the former IAF pilot who led the Osirak mission, was quoted by the Times as saying, "What we now have is a lot of targets, which makes the operation much more difficult." Raz believes an aerial assault on Iran's nuclear facilities is possible. There are many things that the IAF has done over the past few years that the public is not aware of, and it has made many important advances in mid-air refueling. Israel can strike the Iranian nuclear program, Raz said on Israel's Channel 1 TV's Politika program last week. Here's the link to the Sunday Times article cited by the Jerusalem Post's story. Here's what the Sunday Times' report has to say about Israel's readiness to proceed with this attack: Before the massive stroke that left him in a coma, Sharon had declared: "Israel will not accept a nuclear weapon equipped Iran." He had quietly ordered the Israeli Defence Forces to be ready to launch airstrikes against nuclear sites in the Islamic republic if necessary. "The whole issue is now with the Americans," said an Israeli defence source. "Once we get the green light, we're ready." [...] Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the right-wing Likud party, has backed the destruction of Iranian nuclear facilities, although Olmert's Kadima party looks the more likely election winner. At the Hatzerim air base on the edge of the Negev desert, the elite 69 strategic F-15 I squadron is ready to attack. Months of preparations have been completed and the young pilots have finished training for the long-haul flights that will be necessary to reach Iran and back without refuelling.
IAF [i.e., Israeli Air Force] pilots have completed their mission training and fighter jets have been prepared for an Israeli attack on Iran, the British Sunday Times reported.
More after the fold . . .
* Steven D's diary :: :: *
The article reported that "the elite 69 strategic F-15 I squadron" had been equipped with weapons that will be tested in combat for the first time, and that two missile submarines were on standby: one in the Persian Gulf and the second in Haifa Bay.
The Times also said that special IDF forces would be helicoptered into Iran to take out targets that could not be destroyed in an air strike. [...]
Col. [res] Ze'ev Raz, the former IAF pilot who led the Osirak mission, was quoted by the Times as saying, "What we now have is a lot of targets, which makes the operation much more difficult."
Raz believes an aerial assault on Iran's nuclear facilities is possible. There are many things that the IAF has done over the past few years that the public is not aware of, and it has made many important advances in mid-air refueling. Israel can strike the Iranian nuclear program, Raz said on Israel's Channel 1 TV's Politika program last week.
Here's the link to the Sunday Times article cited by the Jerusalem Post's story. Here's what the Sunday Times' report has to say about Israel's readiness to proceed with this attack:
Before the massive stroke that left him in a coma, Sharon had declared: "Israel will not accept a nuclear weapon equipped Iran." He had quietly ordered the Israeli Defence Forces to be ready to launch airstrikes against nuclear sites in the Islamic republic if necessary.
"The whole issue is now with the Americans," said an Israeli defence source. "Once we get the green light, we're ready." [...]
Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the right-wing Likud party, has backed the destruction of Iranian nuclear facilities, although Olmert's Kadima party looks the more likely election winner.
At the Hatzerim air base on the edge of the Negev desert, the elite 69 strategic F-15 I squadron is ready to attack. Months of preparations have been completed and the young pilots have finished training for the long-haul flights that will be necessary to reach Iran and back without refuelling.
The biggest insult to the victims of the Holocaust is to equate criticism of Israel's policies with anti-semitism.
On a similar note: When Sweden was a great power in the 17th century our wars caused the deaths of millions of Poles and Germans. Guess if that period still gets praise in our national anthem?
Next, as to American/Israeli intentions re Iran, I also agree with you. I'm very much afraid there'll be an attack. I'm opposed to that. I'm opposed to the entire neocon/US imperialist scheme for the Middle East.
What I don't get is why you say you're tired of being tagged antisemite. "Let's see if I get labelled again". I'm only a user here, like you, and there are things I may have missed. Has this happened to you here?
Because I have been posting a long time.
I own and run a forum for expatriates that predates this commmuntiy by years. expatforums.org EST 2002
So I am, frankly, tired of chasing the same tail over and over and over again.
But this is the Net and that is the way. CTRL C leads to CTRL V. Atlantic Free Press
Sure I use Firefox.
But, to be frank, anybody working in intelligence who uses MAC is nuts.
Period. If only for the fact that half the software needed does not run on Mac machines.
That's clear knowledge for anyone in the biz'. Atlantic Free Press
You apparently have not heard of Virtual PC? notice this is a Microsoft page
while this is the apple page
or have a look at all the Operating systems that you can run on a Mac, with virtual PC.
just about 1000. Operating systems that is, not just programms.
So, please inform all those knowledgeable people in the biz, rather than further spouting your half-information.
Sorry for being so forceful about this, but this is actually my standard reply to Windows users, that realise their only defence is the rehashing of this single issue talkingpoint.
I actually commend the way the Jewish people have been able to keep their history alive as a constant reminder, as a narrative we can all use to learn some valuable lessons. So I don't think we should just move along now from their story. No way. From a purely psychological point of view, they have accomplished an amazing service to us all by telling their story over and over, forcing the rest of us to listen to them rather than move along to the next news story, making their plight not just an unfortunate chapter in human history, but crucial to our understanding of ourselves, what we are capable of both at our very worst (genocide) and our very best (survivors). The process they have gone through in trying to heal has, I hope, made us all better people.
So, if I say that my people were also victims & survivors of systematic state-sponsored genocide, that doesn't make the Holocaust any less important.
It's not like we have a quota of sympathy, lessons to learn, history to be told and that the Holocaust leaves no room for the rest. Or that all genocides are bad but the Holocaust is extraspecial bad. They are all equally horrific for those who experience them. And everyone who has been on the receiving end of them deserves our attention, sympathy, and our help to ensure it never happens again.
The Jewish people have been remarkably successfull in getting their story told, no small feat. But there are those whose stories have been relegated to the history books or burried deep in the newspaper. That says more about the people who write our history than the people who've been victims of it.
(Full disclosure: My great grandmother was Cherokee. My boyfriend is Jewish.) Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
The point about denying genocides, imho, is that (though we may be forgetful, and in some cases countries and peoples may be happy to forget), the principal case where there is an outright, organized effort to deny, or reduce, or relativize, a genocide concerns that of the European Jews. I'm referring to the movement known as "revisionism" or more properly "negationism". The overall tendency of negationism is antisemitic in that it promotes the notion of a Jewish plot to publicize, exaggerate, or (for the extremos) downright fabricate the history of the genocide. Secondly, it's a movement which favours the racist extreme right by inducing a state of confusion in people's minds as to the ultra-right's past crimes, thus disculpating the racist/fascist elements today and encouraging them to be more extremist and have the "courage" of their "convictions".
Europeans may be sensitive to this because we see the emergence of extreme-right parties and groups, of skinheads and neo-Nazis, things we thought we would never see again. And to be sensitive to how the genocide of the Jews is discussed does not imply insensitivity to other genocides and massacres, including those perpetrated by the Nazis on other groups than the Jews.
On the Congo, though the topic was not specifically genocide, here's a comment I made in a diary by Richard Drayton some time back.
I have to say, this thread has truly dissapointed me. :( Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
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