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Let's remember the forgotten holocausts that have occurred so frequently in our history too. Let's remember the indigineous peoples of North, Central and South America. Let's remember the victims of Pol Pot. Let's remember the Armenians. Let's remember the Belgian Congo. Let's remember.....
by observer393 on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:55:36 AM EST
Yes indeed, let's remember these. But the effect of your comment is to insinuate that we hear quite enough about the genocide of the Jews. If it's what you mean, why don't you come out and say it?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 07:52:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thou shalt not comment.

For one - and I am not speaking from floyd's mouth but my own.

As a Native Canadian (with Cree status) who is half Dutch - I resent that you fire at people who dare to bring the legitimacy of our history into comparison as somehow 'less' than that of the holocaust and label those who dare bring in the millions of Gays and Gypsies who were slaughtered alongside the Jews into the argument as somehow being anti-anti-anti-anything.

My people, historically, were raped, and killed, systematically not long ago.

Jewish people don't hold the 'brand' of wholesale slaughter and the holocaust. It's history that should be never forgotten but it's not exclusive to the Tribe of Israel.

Atlantic Free Press

by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 11:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think you read my comment. I in no way insinuated there was a question of degree, or that other genocides were "less" than that of the European Jews. I am certainly aware of the centuries-long genocide of Native Americans, and sincerely do not mean to belittle it.

However, you mention "millions" of Gays and Gypsies who were slaughtered along with the Jews. It's absolutely true that the Nazis targeted these groups and murdered a great many. But I don't see what purpose is served by talking about millions. That is not historical at all. Millions of Jews were murdered. The main thrust of the murderous Nazi impulse was directed towards the goal of exterminating the Jews.

Lastly, what do you mean by "Thou shalt not comment"?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: Death Toll of the Holocaust

  • 5.1-6.0 million Jews, including 3.0-3.5 million Polish Jews[9]
  • 1.8 -1.9 million Gentile Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10]
  • 200,000-800,000 Roma & Sinti
  • 200,000-300,000 people with disabilities
  • 10,000-25,000 homosexual men
  • 2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
Almost two million Poles, 400K Gypsies. Maybe not "millions" of gay men, but they were specifically targeted for extermination and the nazis killed all those they could get their hands on. The insistence on the 6 million ignores 2 million others who were systematically exterminated in the same locations because of their belonging to certain groups. The jews were not the only group that was specifically targeted for extermination.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The jews were not the only group that was specifically targeted for extermination.
Although it is entirely possible that, had it not been for the decision to "find a final solution to the Jewish question", the machinery of extermination would not have been in place for the other groups, who would have just been killed by the conditions of slave labour in the concentration camps.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:18:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only Jewish gay men were sent to the death camps. The high death rate of gay men had to do with their low status, not with their being "specifically targeted for extermination." In fact, some gay men won release from the camps ... by agreeing to be castrated and sent to serve in a Penal Regiment, where the death rate wasn't much lower than in the camps. And others were made guinea pigs in barbaric experiments to "cure" them and save their Teutonic genes for the Master Race.

Horrible as the persecution of gay men under the Third Reich was, it does NOT qualify as a Holocaust. Only about 50,000 of Germany's millions of gay men were imprisoned, and, as you point out, less than half of this number died.

I would also argue that the Nazis did not kill "all those [gay men] they could get their hands on." Not only did most German gay men survive the Nazi regime; Nazis never bothered to incarcerate even "known" Slavic homosexuals since there was no "danger" of their damaging the supposedly superior Aryan gene pool.
 

by Matt in NYC on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 08:41:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I stand corrected. Thanks.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 08:44:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was a little surprised to see the totals you list did not include non-Polish Slavs and Communists who I believe were slaughtered in fairly high numbers.
by observer393 on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 09:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Saying that Gipsies and homosexuals were slaughtered by the nazis does not reduce in anyway the massacre of the jews.

Saying that the holocaust is no worse than the many massacres of other ethnicities or people that have taken place throughout history does attempt to reduce it as a more banal and/or mundane act of war, which it (and the parallel murder of gypsies and homosexuals) is not.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been to the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem. Alongside with the remembrance of the 6 million who died, there is not even a footnote about the 2 million others who also died in the same fashion in the same locations.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's an unpleasant piece of news, I must admit.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well my only point is - criticism of the State of Israel and it's policies should be debatable without being tagged anti-semitic. Period. I am, frankly, sick of it. Sick of being attacked for being something I am not.

Most of the world cheered in 1992 to 'celebrate' the beginning of the demise of Europe's rape of the Americas and systematic genocide of its people.

We had to watch 'specials' on TV.

Can you imagine that with the holocaust?

The irony is - Columbus was not the first - the Vikings were or maybe even the Chinese.

So let's segue into another subject. And see if I get labelled again.

From Daily Kos.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/19/114321/175#16

Hard to believe, but the Jerusalem Post is reporting that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) are ready to attack Iran's nuclear facilities:

    IAF [i.e., Israeli Air Force] pilots have completed their mission training and fighter jets have been prepared for an Israeli attack on Iran, the British Sunday Times reported.

More after the fold . . .

    * Steven D's diary :: ::
*

    The article reported that "the elite 69 strategic F-15 I squadron" had been equipped with weapons that will be tested in combat for the first time, and that two missile submarines were on standby: one in the Persian Gulf and the second in Haifa Bay.

    The Times also said that special IDF forces would be helicoptered into Iran to take out targets that could not be destroyed in an air strike. [...]

    Col. [res] Ze'ev Raz, the former IAF pilot who led the Osirak mission, was quoted by the Times as saying, "What we now have is a lot of targets, which makes the operation much more difficult."

    Raz believes an aerial assault on Iran's nuclear facilities is possible. There are many things that the IAF has done over the past few years that the public is not aware of, and it has made many important advances in mid-air refueling. Israel can strike the Iranian nuclear program, Raz said on Israel's Channel 1 TV's Politika program last week.

Here's the link to the Sunday Times article cited by the Jerusalem Post's story.   Here's what the Sunday Times' report has to say about Israel's readiness to proceed with this attack:

    Before the massive stroke that left him in a coma, Sharon had declared: "Israel will not accept a nuclear weapon equipped Iran." He had quietly ordered the Israeli Defence Forces to be ready to launch airstrikes against nuclear sites in the Islamic republic if necessary.

    "The whole issue is now with the Americans," said an Israeli defence source. "Once we get the green light, we're ready." [...]

    Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the right-wing Likud party, has backed the destruction of Iranian nuclear facilities, although Olmert's Kadima party looks the more likely election winner.

    At the Hatzerim air base on the edge of the Negev desert, the elite 69 strategic F-15 I squadron is ready to attack. Months of preparations have been completed and the young pilots have finished training for the long-haul flights that will be necessary to reach Iran and back without refuelling.



Atlantic Free Press
by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very good point. Suggested slogan:

The biggest insult to the victims of the Holocaust is to equate criticism of Israel's policies with anti-semitism.

On a similar note: When Sweden was a great power in the 17th century our wars caused the deaths of millions of Poles and Germans. Guess if that period still gets praise in our national anthem?

by Johannes on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ghandi, I entirely agree that no one should be called antisemitic for criticizing Israel. If that were so, I'd be an antisemite.

Next, as to American/Israeli intentions re Iran, I also agree with you. I'm very much afraid there'll be an attack. I'm opposed to that. I'm opposed to the entire neocon/US imperialist scheme for the Middle East.

What I don't get is why you say you're tired of being tagged antisemite. "Let's see if I get labelled again". I'm only a user here, like you, and there are things I may have missed. Has this happened to you here?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 01:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why?

Because I have been posting a long time.

I own and run a forum for expatriates that predates this commmuntiy by years. expatforums.org EST 2002

So I am, frankly, tired of chasing the same tail over and over and over again.

But this is the Net and that is the way. CTRL C leads to CTRL V.

Atlantic Free Press

by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 04:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Over here, it's more Apple C and Apple V...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fucking right.  Cast aside thy Ctrl key, ghandi!

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 06:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
actually I double click on your address to mark it and then I drag it onto  my tabfield and voila, an new tab opens in the background, I can write this comment, while the side loads in the background, ready for me, when I finish posting...
by PeWi on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 08:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in my world.

Sure I use Firefox.

But, to be frank, anybody working in intelligence who uses MAC is nuts.

Period. If only for the fact that half the software needed does not run on Mac machines.

That's clear knowledge for anyone in the biz'.

Atlantic Free Press

by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 10:45:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, but that is just plain wrong, 99.5% of all software that is written for any form of dos runs on any! Apple MAC.
Get your facts straight, please!

You apparently have not heard of Virtual PC?
 notice this is a Microsoft page

while this is the apple page

or have a look at all the Operating systems that you can run on a Mac, with virtual PC.

just about 1000. Operating systems that is, not just programms.

So, please inform all those knowledgeable people in the biz, rather than further spouting your half-information.

Sorry for being so forceful about this, but this is actually my standard reply to Windows users, that realise their only defence is the rehashing of this single issue talkingpoint.

by PeWi on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 08:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All I can say to that is that awareness of Spain's actions in America after 1492 is fortunately better in Spain today than it used to, but unfortunately still not  very widespread. And our lack of awareness is necessarily willful, given what Columbus himself wrote about his own trip (an old thread on that).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 12:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess I read it just the other way around.  Not that we should STOP talking about the genocide of the Jews, but acknowledge that systematic genocides have occured throughout history and that no one group of victims deserves attention/sympathy/studying more than others.

I actually commend the way the Jewish people have been able to keep their history alive as a constant reminder, as a narrative we can all use to learn some valuable lessons.  So I don't think we should just move along now from their story.  No way.  From a purely psychological point of view, they have accomplished an amazing service to us all by telling their story over and over, forcing the rest of us to listen to them rather than move along to the next news story, making their plight not just an unfortunate chapter in human history, but crucial to our understanding of ourselves, what we are capable of both at our very worst (genocide) and our very best (survivors).  The process they have gone through in trying to heal has, I hope, made us all better people.

So, if I say that my people were also victims & survivors of systematic state-sponsored genocide, that doesn't make the Holocaust any less important.

It's not like we have a quota of sympathy, lessons to learn, history to be told and that the Holocaust leaves no room for the rest.  Or that all genocides are bad but the Holocaust is extraspecial bad.  They are all equally horrific for those who experience them.  And everyone who has been on the receiving end of them deserves our attention, sympathy, and our help to ensure it never happens again.  

The Jewish people have been remarkably successfull in getting their story told, no small feat.  But there are those whose stories have been relegated to the history books or burried deep in the newspaper.  That says more about the people who write our history than the people who've been victims of it.

(Full disclosure: My great grandmother was Cherokee.  My boyfriend is Jewish.)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 01:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My original post was not trying to play down the Nazi led holocaust or to deny it. The ost was aimed at trying to awaken some awareness of other holocausts, which it seems most in the world are happy to deny.
When was the last time when spent a minute remembering the 11.6 million africans of the Belgian Congo? There are many other examples.  
by observer393 on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 08:59:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for making your intentions clearer.

The point about denying genocides, imho, is that (though we may be forgetful, and in some cases countries and peoples may be happy to forget), the principal case where there is an outright, organized effort to deny, or reduce, or relativize, a genocide concerns that of the European Jews. I'm referring to the movement known as "revisionism" or more properly "negationism". The overall tendency of negationism is antisemitic in that it promotes the notion of a Jewish plot to publicize, exaggerate, or (for the extremos) downright fabricate the history of the genocide. Secondly, it's a movement which favours the racist extreme right by inducing a state of confusion in people's minds as to the ultra-right's past crimes, thus disculpating the racist/fascist elements today and encouraging them to be more extremist and have the "courage" of their "convictions".

Europeans may be sensitive to this because we see the emergence of extreme-right parties and groups, of skinheads and neo-Nazis, things we thought we would never see again. And to be sensitive to how the genocide of the Jews is discussed does not imply insensitivity to other genocides and massacres, including those perpetrated by the Nazis on other groups than the Jews.

On the Congo, though the topic was not specifically genocide, here's a comment I made in a diary by Richard Drayton some time back.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 09:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we more or less agree on this one ;)
by observer393 on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 08:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or the statement could simply mean what it says. In talking about the genocide perpetrated against the Jews in Nazi Germany, let's not forget those victims of the other genocides.

The Left End of the Dial
by James Benjamin on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 02:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am saddened you feel this way. My whole point was aimed at trying to raise awareness of the denial of many holocausts througout history. The diary was about holocaust denial. I really fail to see how this detracts from the suffering of the Jewish and other peoples in Hitler's genocidal campaigns.
by observer393 on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 09:26:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw this too late, please see above.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jan 20th, 2006 at 09:43:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The more I read the response to your sane, thoughtful, respectful comment, the more upset I am getting.

I have to say, this thread has truly dissapointed me. :(

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? It's more or less exactly what I'd expect.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(C: And don't even get me started on the Irish Famine...)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't think throwing that into the mix would be constructive.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No.  Would not.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then why did you bring it up?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 19th, 2006 at 05:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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