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What culture are we from?  Or what are we inhabiting now?

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:22:37 PM EST
What culture do you consider yourself to be part of?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:24:12 PM EST
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If DoDo can be apatriotic, can I be "acultural"? There are many cultures I move around in or am a product of, but to be a part of, to somehow belong to, or to have embraced ... I've never known a comfortable fit.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:32:13 PM EST
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I don't know. You can say you're acultural, but I'm not sure you can really be acultural.

What do you mean by "cultures I move around in"? Can you give some examples?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's more like a mosaic; fragments of various cultures, often contradictory.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:49:12 PM EST
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Would the word not be loaded with too many other meanings, I'd say you have been looking for the word multicultural.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 02:32:02 PM EST
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No I haven't been looking for the word multicultural (which is overused to the point of meaninglessness now); I don't feel a "part of" any particular culture, though I move from culture to culture and take things with me as I go.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 02:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does "feeling I am from culture x" entail? Patriotism? I'm not sure.

I don't "feel" American either, but I am absolutely 100% American beef. I once had conceits that I was some sort of cultureless ideal of the sort that American liberals often wish they were. This was proven to be devastatingly naive and comically false by two specific events that occurred about five years ago.

One, I fell for a girl that looked and sounded American but was culturally Arab. She had American parents, grew up in Kuwait, and moved to the US to go to college (one of those people who can honestly claim to be borderless and feel like they don't really fit in in any country). Getting to know her intimately (and I mean personally, not sexually) I began to notice subtle differences in how she behaved that, when I considered them, mapped to very large differences in how we see the world - mine was very much material based in comparison to her, both in the literal (consumerist) and philosophical sense. [as a side note, though, I'm increasingly convinced that women's fascination with shoes and shoe purchasing is biological and not cultural in origin.]

Two, shortly after the topic of point one flamed out, I was laid off from my job. The immediate effect was to realize how much of my identity was tied up in my job, which scared the hell out of me at the time because my belief was that I was beyond that kind of "superficial" identity, and in addition I didn't like the job that much as it was. I was unemployed for about three months and in that time I came to understand why. Part of it was that I clearly enjoyed the material benefits of my job, and the respect (primarily given in non-verbal ways) it earned me from others, often derived from my "material prowess." Closely related was the sense of superiority I garnered from my middle class status (particularly at my young age at the time not long out of school). Since this all operates non-verbally and subconsciously, it's largely unnoticeable until it has been (partially, at least) removed.

Not easy things for a liberal to consider. You can count up the multi-dimensional ironies on your own.

Events like the above don't occur when I'm traveling in Europe or interacting with Europeans. To me the differences feel slight. I'm sure if I were to, say, live in France for a few years and learn the language I'd feel a bit differently, but American culture is derived almost entirely from the Europeans that settled here and the cultures they brought with them. My feelings on that often lead to friction here and elsewhere particularly when I interact with people that don't understand their own relationship with their social class and how it creates them (perhaps not ironically some of the worst offenders are people who rail against class the most). It's also why I laugh a lot when I observe Americans and French (in particular) arguing with each other.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 06:09:39 PM EST
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What does "feeling I am from culture x" entail? Patriotism? I'm not sure.

I don't know if it involves patriotism so much as identification.  For example, my mother and stepfamily were Catholic and I went to Catholic school, so Catholicism has certainly shaped my life and in some ways I am a product of it, but I would never identify as Catholic.  It is a part of my personal culture, but I do not fit into the culture of Catholicism.

Another example, I am sure I have many characteristics of someone who is a product of American culture (my fierce defense of freedom of speech and my faith that average people can change the world attest to it), but the typical markers of American culture: materialism, consumerism, entreprenurialism, pop culture etc. I don't identify with at all, and have even had Europeans incredulous when I've told them I am American.  I live in a world dominated by these things, so they must shape me, but I still feel like an alien when I go to a mall or turn on the TV, like, "who are these people?"  I've had more culture shock at home than I have ever had abroad.

Another: I've never been poor or rich, but like Izzy, I have always felt the most out of place around "normal Middle class" people.  Again, I feel like an alien.

I suppose I could say I belonged to some "Western" culture, as I certainly don't feel an identification with that of the "East,"  but the West is hardly homogenous.  To say that I and Paris Hilton and an Irish fisherman shared the same culture would really be stretching the definition...

I guess I could lay some claim to the intellectual/progressive/NPR listenning/socially responsible/organic foods eating/wonkish/urbanite bobo crowd.  I suppose that is my "culture" but even within that culture, I feel like I am standing on the sidelines observing rather than a poster child for that culture.  

I'm just a postmodern girl in a small world.  Cultures seem to be less and less like unique spheres of realities defined by time and place and participants and more and more like a voluminous repertoire of perspectives and experiences we can use to inform our individual realities or ignore depending on the situation.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 07:21:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another example, I am sure I have many characteristics of someone who is a product of American culture (my fierce defense of freedom of speech and my faith that average people can change the world attest to it), but the typical markers of American culture: materialism, consumerism, entrepreneurialism, pop culture etc. I don't identify with at all, and have even had Europeans incredulous when I've told them I am American.  I live in a world dominated by these things, so they must shape me, but I still feel like an alien when I go to a mall or turn on the TV, like, "who are these people?"  I've had more culture shock at home than I have ever had abroad.

I could have written something along these lines, my point (which I wasn't consciously considering when I wrote the parent comment) is that once certain life assumptions were stripped away, my perception of my own cultural identity was revealed to be somewhat different than reality. See also kcurie's quote from Levi-Strauss. You saying "I don't feel American" got me thinking about the degree to which you can think outside the bounds of the "black box" you grow up in.

I suppose I could say I belonged to some "Western" culture, as I certainly don't feel an identification with that of the "East,"  but the West is hardly homogeneous.  To say that I and Paris Hilton and an Irish fisherman shared the same culture would really be stretching the definition...

By kcurie's definition, maybe not.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 07:59:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
..to exist within a culture and not be a part of it?

I'm thinking mostly of myself, because a significant section of my life takes place in a godforsaken suburb inhabited mostly by readers of the Daily Mail.

I like to think I don't belong here.  But since I'm here for the schools I guess that's one thing my neighbours and I have in common.

by Sassafras on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:42:57 PM EST
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So you're a foreigner. What culture are you an exile from?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 05:08:37 PM EST
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Like poemless, I don't know if anywhere fits exactly.

But I feel most 'at home'(or least in bad faith), at work, as part of a team trying to give disadvantaged children a better start in life.

I haven't thought about it in these terms before, but my mother's parents were Labour activists, and my father's career had a strong element of social justice.

So that would seem to be the culture I'm coming from...

by Sassafras on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 06:07:05 PM EST
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I float, I think. I think I've settled on being Welsh but in most places where self identity into a culture or group comes in, I sit just on the outside.

I've talked before about Deaf culture and how I don't fit in there - I'm deaf but not 'proper' culturally Deaf. Also other aspects of my identity such as sexuality, leave me on the outside; I'm not straight but I'm not 'proper' gay, so the gay community isn't quite right for me either. I'm not religious so I have no cultural identity from that aspect of life.

I come from a middle class background yet I would argue that I was deprived as a child, in a social sense if not financial, and had no security as I grew up.  It was a typical Daily Mail reading middle class, white suburban area that I spent most of my teenage years in, but I do not identify with that mindset or culture in any way at all.  I also spent 4 years on off homeless, which took away any superficial desire for material possession that typifies the middle classes and their drive for status and self worth based on what they have.  My own values around social justice, collectivism and as a union activist are a massive departure from my parent's values and my upbringing.

I fit in in Wales, it's my country as far as I am concerned.  I've spent all of my adult life here, I understand Welsh public policy, demographics, heritage and culture and I feel a connection to it all.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 07:05:02 AM EST
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