What culture are you from? | 129 comments (129 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Can you define Western for me? Who is and isn't in it?

And surely you mean from overlapping subcultures rather than from different subcultures?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

last question.. yes.

The first question... it does not depend on location. It is everyone who was raised among the fundamental western myths. The most important I know (I may forget some).

-Self exists, you are different than others and object.. the goal is to "grow" yourself.. (narrative: become a person).

-Time/Progress. time si not circular. Vital concept of progress, improvement on the general status of the society (linked vital concepts: western medicine, science myths, knowledge...) I would say enlightenment ideas are also so strongly related to this narrative that I am tented to say that those raised in mega-church in US are a very strong modification in the Western catheogry, they coudl certainly split one day fromally.

-Family. Nuclear family structure, children sacred, old people not powerful nor with status because of the age. Marriage strongly linked with love.. social pressure to prevent marraige as a pure contract.

-Space distribution. Separation of three spaces. Private, publich and semi-public with very complex and strict guidelines (complexity of a build-up narrative on space).

-Sex. Sex is bad, only learning and control make sit good.. sex becomes good as you grow up. Sex, love and marriage are generally linked...social control and discussion on those issues.

-Technology/government...makes the division of insiders/outsiders. Economic system complex with strong thesis and antithesis about its variability, relevance (whole set of ideas an ddiscourses about economic elements.. class, bosses, rich, poor..).

-gift/potlach. Potlach completely removed from the economic realms, implemented on personal relation.

I am probalby forgetting one (or two?).. but I do not recall it....

And of course... then there are the universal myths and features which are transcultural.. and there are a lot of them.. but they make us human.. not western.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gee.. (none / 0)

of course... I was forgetting feelings.

-Feelings are internal. basic anrrative: feelings are the thing that make us human. Feelings arise from our more deep self. Feelings are no classified (as in most cultures with a rich variety of them) but lived.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gee.. (none / 0)

I was following you up until here ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 01:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Feelings (4.00 / 5)

Ups... I am really bad at explaining myself.

In other words.. there seems to be some feelings or internal experiences that are universal.. on the other hadn other experiences are clearly not universals. feelings, name for feelings attitute and implementation of them ("feeling" and acting to the others) cahnge with time and place. So each culture nomrally has a different set of feelings.. although some of them are extremelly common. This is the reason for the huge discussions about where do feelings come from... basic brain need (some people say in the genes.. but I do not thnk it makes much sense...given that the brain is there..) or by learning...And of course, there may be some purely non-human (that all animals feel) and other related with the appearance of the word (narrative, culture).. It is and endless discussion.

But there is no discussion regarding that each culture has a basic narrative explaining them which basically fixes a playing field about how to deal with them, what to do and how to do it.

Some cultures classify it and link them with other imporant parts of life. Hindus have a whole structure and classification of feelings.. so when you feel that way you also think that way, sense that way, act that way. For example.. when you are angry I think Hindus consider that you get heavy. Properties, related with internal actions and with external actions. It is a wonderful topic.. if you can google it..Hindus-feelings-classification

Other cultures do not classify them and lack most of the western ones.. for example falling in love exists in 75 % of recorded cultures (it was actually reported and double-checked) and empathy seems to be universal.. but how you deal with them both.. how you act and when you act ..depends ont he culture.

I was pointing out that we have a very complex set of feelings, we give them a lot of relevance.. to the point that we consider that someone who has no feelings is no human. But at the same time we also hate the classification...the most we classify is the possitive and the negative ones.. and that's all.. and still some people oppose it...

Am I clearer.. or I am still awful at explaining my self... geee... afew... come to the rescue...please!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 02:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

Think I've got your meaning now.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (4.00 / 2)

It's perfectly clear! When you said So each culture nomrally has a different set of feelings I thought hmm, well you mean each culture has a different set of categories by which feelings are managed... understood, explained, welcomed, rejected, approved, disapproved, forbidden, promoted, confined to supposed coarse brutishness, or refined over a lifetime of practice. Which is what you then went on to say. All is clear.

The way feelings are managed varies of course in time too within the same cultural tradition. There's a strong school of historical thought (not even postmodern!) that says falling in love, for example, was not part of the European tradition until it emerged as a construct deriving from mediaeval courtly love literature and the troubadours. Certainly the way "falling in love" was constructed evolved, took on new cultural layers of meaning, even if you consider (as I do) that there's probably something basically animal and universal there.

Another example from our European past is the theory of humours, by which the the category of "humours" your body was ruled by, determined the subset of feelings you were mostly subject to (see your Hindu example where it's the feelings that determine the state of the body).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (4.00 / 2)

It's perfectly clear!

I'm just a bit slow on these matters ....

I'm sure the history of romantic love would make a good topic for a series of diaries. (Did I read recently that it was imported from the Islamic world to some extent? It's not of European origin as far as I recall?)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (4.00 / 2)

Some people say... there was a Mozarabic Spanish influence on the troubadours, some deny this and say it was the Celtic matter (the Arthurian stories) that was circulating in Romance Southern Europe, that blossomed into the courtly love tradition. I've no idea who's right. It would be nice if it were a bit of the one and a touch of the other.

A history of romantic love would be good. But a long-term project...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 04:00:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (4.00 / 3)

There's a strong school of historical thought (not even postmodern!) that says falling in love, for example, was not part of the European tradition until it emerged as a construct deriving from mediaeval courtly love literature and the troubadours.

I've never understood this, because it's obvious from Greek and Roman literature that they had similar experiences. The only difference was that they were more openly bisexual and sometimes openly paedophiles too. But 'love' - in the sense of an overwhelming feeling attachment - certainly wasn't unknown to them.

The Troubador twist wasn't romantic love, but the sublimation of romantic love into pure narrative with little or no physical contact.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 05:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

Love and strogn empathy was... but the idea of falling in love in the "Illness" sense of the word.. of behaving stupid.. doing things more ore less like crazy is indeed disputed.... and very heatedly disputed as far as I know.

The influence of translations to modern languages and all that...you know :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 1)

but the idea of falling in love in the "Illness" sense of the word..

Heh. As a matter of fact, I do remember reading an ancient text (most probably Greek) describing love in 'medical' terms, as an illness. I don't remember the author.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:09:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (none / 1)

I did not know that.. but I am quite sure that there is a small group of people that deny any kind of fall in love ideal in greece and rome.. or that,at best, it is impossible to know the truth... but ei... pass the popcorn... I think it is perfectly possible.. falling in love as an "illness" is quite spread as a human behavor.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 07:07:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (none / 1)

After a little search, I am pretty sure it was Galen, a Greek physician from the 2nd century AD. However, looking for an original quote on love, I only found a short passage here, but didn't found the longer passage where he lists all the symptoms and the 'chronic state' of the sickness.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 08:01:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (4.00 / 2)

Galen is the Greek physician par excellence, to the point that a rhetorical [but archaic] way to say "a doctor" in Spanish is "un galeno". He's like Aristotle or Ptolemy.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 08:43:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (4.00 / 2)

There's a bit here where Greek physicians are quoted:

Hippocrates (470 - 410 BC) thought of the intense love as "greediness" created in the heart, and the stronger the intensity of love, the more a person becomes anxious and worried. The increased anxiety causes sleeplessness and the blood will "burn" and become dark. The "dark blood" spoils the person's thoughts causing "mental deficiency", which may lead to "insanity or madness." This madness might cause a person in love or love addict to kill himself. Also, the person in love might get together with his loved one and then might die because of excitement and happiness. "You could observe", he said, "that this love addict, when he hears the name of the person he loves, his blood escapes and his color changes."
Galen (129 - 210 A.D.) later said about those who are in love: "Concern or worry causes the death of the heart while their "sadness" is considered a "heart disease" in itself. He considered "falling in love" as a state of passionate liking combined with greediness or possessiveness. He stated that "falling in love" is created by the "alnafs", which is the Arabic word for what we now refer to as the psyche. "Alnafs" was thought by Galen to dwell inside the brain, the heart and the liver.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 08:57:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

The Troubador twist wasn't romantic love, but the sublimation of romantic love into pure narrative with little or no physical contact.

Not the sublimation of romantic love, but the sublimation of sexual desire into chaste obsession (the symbol of the Rose, oh dear me...). It is argued that literary descriptions of romantic love evolved out of this, eventually influencing the consensus on love across society and finally actual behaviour.

But, in itself, the courtly love ethos referred back to previous myths. Like the heart being pierced by the arrow of Eros -- being smitten. To what extent was that narrative suggested by actual experience..?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 08:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (4.00 / 3)

little or no physical contact.

the fetishisation of virginity being at least as old as Christianity...

But, troubadours or not, I have the impression that marriage remained largely a business transaction until at least the beginning of the last century?

by Sassafras on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 05:19:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (4.00 / 4)

Most of christianity's horror of sex, and a lot of it's misogyny, is tracable to the Pauline/Augustine horrors of around the 300 or 400s. In fact it doesn't really establish itself properly until the Celtic church loses power entirely in about the 900s - I forget the exact dates - and Rome imposes celibacy (hah!) in the 1000s-1400s or so. (Do the eastern churches share the fear and disgust or is it restricted to a don't-do-it-outside-marriage-enjoy-it-once-married type thing like in Islam?)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (4.00 / 5)

I don't see fear of sex as Western so much as Christian. Roman Christianity was (and to some extent still is) a kind of extended pathological interlude in the Western tradition - the bastard offspring of a patriarchal Abrahamic and tribal tradition crossed with various shades of Platonism, and given an added boost with a shift towards good old fashioned oligarchic imperialism hidden under a pseudo-spiritual sugar frosting.

If I wanted to play devil's advocate (hmmm...) I'd suggest that it's actually based more on a middle eastern world view.

That's not quite fair because Rome and Greece had a notoriously patriarchal strand. But there was also a more open strand in certain times and places that has been very influential politically and socially in the West, but remains almost totally absent from the Abrahamic mindset even today.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

The fear of sex is distinct from patriarchy - neither Judaism or Islam seem to have the feeling that sex is dirty in the way that Christianity had/has. The view that sex is a necessary evil is unusual, to say the least!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 at 02:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

neither Judaism or Islam seem to have the feeling that sex is dirty in the way that Christianity had/has.

Maybe not sex itself, but female sexuality. Remember the prescriptions for women having their period.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 at 03:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

Is that about female sexuality or blood?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 at 04:03:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 1)

All righteous human actions, including sexual relations within the bonds of marriage, are considered to be a form of worship of Allah. There is evidence that the Prophet taught his followers that sexual relations between a husband and wife carried spiritual rewards-because sex sanctioned by law prevented the unlawful satisfaction of carnal desire.

fromThe Complete Idiot's Guide to the Koran by Shaykh Muhammad Sarwar and Brandon Toropov

So, by comparison to St Paul's rather grudging allowance of marital sex for those not strong enough to do without, a ringing endorsement.

by Sassafras on Fri Nov 17th, 2006 at 02:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

It could be argued, obviously, that any society that tries to control sex by confining it to marriage is afraid of something.

But is it female sexuality per se, or an older, deeper fear of being biologically cheated?

by Sassafras on Fri Nov 17th, 2006 at 02:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feelings (none / 0)

Most of christianity's horror of sex, and a lot of it's misogyny, is tracable to the Pauline/Augustine horrors of around the 300 or 400s.

Some goes back two centuries further, to the gnostic schism, and the treatment of Mary Magdalene.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 at 03:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am afraid (none / 0)

Another question for the experts: accepting your outline, how many of those myths do you have to hold to be part of Western culture?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:41:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Colman (4.00 / 6)

You must be the Mything Link ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Colman (4.00 / 5)

That sort of talk isn't culturally acceptable around here, Mythter.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Colman (4.00 / 3)

What a mythterious conversation.

by Sassafras on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Colman (4.00 / 3)

If this went on all night it would be a big mythtake...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Colman (4.00 / 2)

Do you promyth to stop?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 03:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Colman (4.00 / 2)

No mythunderstandings?

by Sassafras on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 04:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Colman (none / 0)

Are you taking the myth?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 06:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Colman (none / 1)

i mythed kc!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 09:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am afraid (4.00 / 4)

YOu cannot be a mything link if you do not believe in all them all. All them all.. actually.. it is not that you believe in them... they are just part of what you are (or actually you are htem and they are you)...even if you go somewhere else and manage to get in touch wiht others cosntitutive myths.. it will be very difficult to interiorize the new one and making it yourself...your brain is not that good at that when you grow old unles you train it... then basically you grow and you learn and change yourself.. this is the great thing o being human and of or brain..we are incredible myth processor.

IN one sentence

Seven myths to rule you and one myth to rule them all.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 04:00:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am afraid (4.00 / 2)

How does culture change then? Or are those planks an unchanging basis for Western Culture?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 04:13:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am afraid (none / 1)

we play with them.. we change them.. each time we implement them and paly with others.

Soem antrhopologists that culture is the people palying wiht the rules more than the rules...

So it is some kind of feedback...

So, people change it.. how?? Whne??

Puff thi sis the core of anthropology. I think there must be as many school of thougs as anthropologists.

I persoanlly think it is very valid question where we could use the scientific narrative to get an answer.. although it is very difficult.

Having said taht, the fundational myths are very difficult to change.. and normally it means a huge change in the social structure/ social order...

Margaret Mead defended that even those monumental changes start with a very small group of people wanting to change things.....other antrhopologists and sociolists would be more materialistic...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 at 11:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And the next itme (none / 1)

.. you call me expert I am going ot punch you in the nose je jejeje :)

I just repeat what a linked from others :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 04:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the next itme (none / 1)

An expert is one who knows one more thing than you do.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 05:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am afraid (none / 1)

kcurie, I think that is probably as good a short synopsis of Western culture, at least as I understandit, as I have seen. But you forgot the Greeks. Any discussion of Western culture has have something about the Greeks in it.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Tue Nov 14th, 2006 at 06:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What culture are you from? | 129 comments (129 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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