Abstract class war | 74 comments (74 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Without misconceptions (4.00 / 3)

Like I said in Colman's previous thread on the topic... Repeat after me: I hereby vow not to be the first to introduce "The West", "Europe", or "The Left" into a discussion without an explanation of what I mean.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:00:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Without misconceptions (4.00 / 7)

Add to that list "The International Community", please?

In several recent instances, US/UK media and politicos have used the term "the International Community" as shorthand for US+UK+AUS+Israel+Guam+Marshall Islands.

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Without misconceptions (4.00 / 3)

Add to that list "The International Community"

Oh, we have that too. It's "la communauté internationale". Never quite figure out what that was.

Apparently, it refers to those nations which take it upon themselves to police the world.

by balbuz on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 12:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh Lordi! (none / 0)

There go my thursdays....

You scientists are all the same ;-)

Nailing things down and putting things in boxes is what got us into all these problems in the first place. It's the spaces between the boxes that are important. Read Stafford Beer's classic 'Decision and Control', and then blame it on the Greeks. They're the buggers I'm after...

For me the easiest thing to do is to avoid all diaries that require such definitions.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:29:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (none / 1)

Well, I'm telling you I refuse to use the boxes because they lend themselves to misunderstanding. What's your problem? You don't mind beiing misunderstood?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:32:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (4.00 / 2)

I do not mind being misunderstood - just as haiku does not require that you 'understand'. Poetry, painting, music and so on are not about facts, they are about experiences and sensations. I would certainly prefer to communicate with your subconsciousness than your consciousness.

ET however, favours PNers.

But anyway The Man from Lyons has just left in a taxi with his eyes closed, after we had enjoyed some most excellent wines from the region out here in the Finnish boondocks. I am now a confirmed Côte-Rötie fan. (N. Rhône)

I was supposed to post a photo of us together toasting ETers, but I am suffering image capture problems - or, possibly, Côte-Rötie problems. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 04:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW (none / 0)

What is PN?

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PN (none / 1)

Stands for the Finnish word 'Pilkkunussija' which, politely translated means someone who has carnal relations with commas - in other words, too much arguing over insignificant detail :-)

There's a lot of it at ET. I am apparently the Grand Vizier of this ancient rite.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 11:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's much more polite in Finnish (4.00 / 3)

I think calling someone a comma-fucker could get you in real trouble.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 02:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's much more polite in Finnish (4.00 / 2)

yes, probably get your face punctuated, period.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 03:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (4.00 / 2)

No, it's putting things in arbitary boxes and then pretending that the boxes are a feature of the thing that's the problem: most things, and certainly all people, go into lots and lots of different overlapping and/or nested boxes.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (4.00 / 4)

For me the easiest thing to do is to avoid all diaries that require such definitions.

I don't think Colman is worried about diaries, I think he's worried about doublespeak in the press, and government and thonk-tink pronouncements.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:39:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (4.00 / 3)

It sneaks in here as well - I do it through laziness sometimes.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (4.00 / 2)

I think that part of what you object to is the habit of equating specific meaning with definitions, and equating definitions with hard-edged classifications. This is often either impossible or arbitrary and (at best) unilluminating.

If one points out a distinction, some will say that this means there must be a line between black and white. If one points out shades of grey, some will say that this means there is can be no distinction. The former use dawn and dusk to argue against day and night; the latter use day and night to argue against dawn and dusk.

This pattern, if named, could perhaps be dismissed more quickly an generate less noise that distracts from substantive discussion.
--------------

Where meaning is real, yet inherently fuzzy, I often think in terms of prototypes: a prototypical "day" is sunny, and a prototypical "night" is dark. However, another pair of prototypes would have the Sun well above or well below the horizon. Finns may find these exotic, and instead use clock time: Helsinki, land of he midnight dusk.

Note that part of the fuzz is that the prototypes themselves can differ -- but they, too, need not be precise. Meanings remain useful provided that what is similar to one prototypes is usually similar to the other.

A prototypical "European culture" is of course harder to describe than day or night, but disaggregating what one means into dimensions (religions, political structures...) works fairly well, and can be done with respect to the specific issues addressed in a discussion.

My position supports the use of labels, but opposes the idea that they must correspond to boxes. They have meaning, but not need not have that kind of meaning. In actual discourse, however, where a label is being abused, it may be best to avoid it. (Thus, I can concede the uselessness of any label, in a prototypically abusive context.)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (none / 1)

Who said anything about definitions and hard-edges?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (4.00 / 2)

Sven ;-)

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (none / 0)

Techno - this is another perceptive comment of yours!

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 04:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Lordi! (none / 0)

Thank you! (Please excuse all the absurd and snarky ones.)