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What 'system'?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:45:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Language. Language usage.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the usage is the same as the '(multiple)-reality'. They are not separate things.

Language is not a science - though the study of languages is a science.

Or would you prefer a BBC unit devoted to nailing down meaning - which, for a living thing, is very painful?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
would you prefer a BBC unit devoted to nailing down meaning - which, for a living thing, is very painful?  

The skit should almost write itself.  

What noises does meaning make when it is nailed down?  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gerrroink!

(Well, last time I nailed it down it did.  When I pulled the nail out it went  Peeeeeeeiuw!)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:40:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven it's like you're trying to deny that doublespeak is a problem.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not Sven - he's taken - but allow me to jump in.

Language doesn't have a Set of meanings because tokens, words, and (especially) phrases do not have rigorous definitions.  The token "is," word "To Be," has pages of definitions and sub-definitions in the OED.  Illustration:

x IS y ; Logical, where IS conveys "the same as"

The ball IS red  ; Phenomenological, where IS conveys "has the ontological accidental of"

In the Logical use the the use of the token within the term can be rigorously defined through axiomatics such that it can determined, necessarily, the relationship of x and y.

The the second use ... well, it gets complicated and the process gets more convoluted as one applies greater rigor.  Grossly, but accurately, simplified: the end point of analysis is ultimately achieved when the analyst declares, "Bugger this for a game of soldiers" and moves on.

Doublespeak happens when the communicator purposely manipulates the inherent ambiguity of Language for emotive (a la Logical Postivitism) persuasion with the intent to obfuscate, rather than illuminate.  


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 12:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not at all - it is a huge problem.

But what we are all coming to realise is that what people DO is more important than what they say.

That is why 'action' is a topic here at ET.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 04:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What you are basically saying or implying is that we should all write at greater length to remove doubts about meaning.

I'm sorry, but that can go an awful long way towards windbagginess (neologistics is the answer?) - the message gets buried in verbiage. It may be more correct, but tedious. Communication is always going to be a hit-and-miss process.

At its best - say Haiku - it is the hit-and-missness that reveals how the brain works.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No I'm not: I'm suggesting that we - in general - need to be rather more careful when using classificaitons in contexts where they have bugger all meaning.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:58:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And we need to be wary of words used for the positive associations they elicit, but for different purposes.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...and the negative...
by Sassafras on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:34:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like I said in Colman's previous thread on the topic... Repeat after me: I hereby vow not to be the first to introduce "The West", "Europe", or "The Left" into a discussion without an explanation of what I mean.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:00:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Add to that list "The International Community", please?  

In several recent instances, US/UK media and politicos have used the term "the International Community" as shorthand for US+UK+AUS+Israel+Guam+Marshall Islands.

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Add to that list "The International Community"

Oh, we have that too. It's "la communauté internationale". Never quite figure out what that was.

Apparently, it refers to those nations which take it upon themselves to police the world.

by balbuz on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 12:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There go my thursdays....

You scientists are all the same ;-)

Nailing things down and putting things in boxes is what got us into all these problems in the first place. It's the spaces between the boxes that are important. Read Stafford Beer's classic  'Decision and Control', and then blame it on the Greeks. They're the buggers I'm after...

For me the easiest thing to do is to avoid all diaries that require such definitions.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:29:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm telling you I refuse to use the boxes because they lend themselves to misunderstanding. What's your problem? You don't mind beiing misunderstood?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:32:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not mind being misunderstood - just as haiku does not require that you 'understand'. Poetry, painting, music and so on are not about facts, they are about experiences and sensations. I would certainly prefer to communicate with your subconsciousness than your consciousness.

ET however, favours PNers.

But anyway The Man from Lyons has just left in a taxi with his eyes closed, after we had enjoyed some most excellent wines from the region out here in the Finnish boondocks. I am now a confirmed Côte-Rötie fan. (N. Rhône)

I was supposed to post a photo of us together toasting ETers, but I am suffering image capture problems - or, possibly, Côte-Rötie problems. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 04:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is PN?

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stands for the Finnish word 'Pilkkunussija' which, politely translated means someone who has carnal relations with commas - in other words, too much arguing over insignificant detail :-)

There's a lot of it at ET. I am apparently the Grand Vizier of this ancient rite.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 11:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think calling someone a comma-fucker could get you in real trouble.  

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 02:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, probably get your face punctuated, period.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 03:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's putting things in arbitary boxes and then pretending that the boxes are a feature of the thing that's the problem: most things, and certainly all people, go into lots and lots of different overlapping and/or nested boxes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For me the easiest thing to do is to avoid all diaries that require such definitions.

I don't think Colman is worried about diaries, I think he's worried about doublespeak in the press, and government and thonk-tink pronouncements.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:39:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It sneaks in here as well - I do it through laziness sometimes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that part of what you object to is the habit of equating specific meaning with definitions, and equating definitions with hard-edged classifications. This is often either impossible or arbitrary and (at best) unilluminating.

If one points out a distinction, some will say that this means there must be a line between black and white. If one points out shades of grey, some will say that this means there is can be no distinction. The former use dawn and dusk to argue against day and night; the latter use day and night to argue against dawn and dusk.

This pattern, if named, could perhaps be dismissed more quickly an generate less noise that distracts from substantive discussion.
--------------

Where meaning is real, yet inherently fuzzy, I often think in terms of prototypes: a prototypical "day" is sunny, and a prototypical "night" is dark. However, another pair of prototypes would have the Sun well above or well below the horizon. Finns may find these exotic, and instead use clock time: Helsinki, land of he midnight dusk.

Note that part of the fuzz is that the prototypes themselves can differ -- but they, too, need not be precise. Meanings remain useful provided that what is similar to one prototypes is usually similar to the other.

A prototypical "European culture" is of course harder to describe than day or night, but disaggregating what one means into dimensions (religions, political structures...) works fairly well, and can be done with respect to the specific issues addressed in a discussion.

My position supports the use of labels, but opposes the idea that they must correspond to boxes. They have meaning, but not need not have that kind of meaning. In actual discourse, however, where a label is being abused, it may be best to avoid it. (Thus, I can concede the uselessness of any label, in a prototypically abusive context.)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who said anything about definitions and hard-edges?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven ;-)

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Techno - this is another perceptive comment of yours!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 04:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you! (Please excuse all the absurd and snarky ones.)

USER WARNING[#1]: HTML TAG ABUSE

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 12:12:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Enough said.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 at 12:12:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
we should all write at greater length  

or just more precisely

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:24:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same thing

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:29:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not always.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 09:35:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it is easier for me to write 'same thing' than to qualify the occasions when it would not apply, and bore myself stupid.

If a message does not get through, it is the fault of the sender, not the receiver. The sender may congratulate him/herself on having sent the perfect message, but it is what takes place in the mind of the recipient that is important. Monologue v dialogue.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 04:26:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My point was that PRECISE language often IS concise.  

Long windedness tends to happen when one does not know what one is saying, and sort of chases it around.  

This is true for both emotional and intellectual modes.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The word flashing here is "propaganda"; the deliberate use of:

1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.  
  1. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.  
  2. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.  
  3. Roman Catholic Church. a. a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV, having supervision over foreign missions and the training of priests for these missions.  
b. a school (College of Propaganda) established by Pope Urban VIII for the education of priests for foreign missions.

Esp. No.3  You can't defeat propaganda by deciding that a word can't mean X, Y, or Z.  In Orwell's 1984, doublespeak worked because words were removed from the language.  Without the word to think the thought, there was no thought.  But if we endlessly clarify a word, or change it subtly (all words change subtly over time; etymology is fascinating--to me), or just make some up for the hoil of oot, and laugh at those who use democracy when they mean no such thing...by using it against them...

The problem is the deliberate use of words to an end by Ze Purrs Dat Be, but it seems this power is on the wane as the word has left the presses and leapt into the internet...

Well, that's the hyperbole.  If the political discussion is formed by The Sun, The Mail and [add your local examples here], then "higher" words are irrelevant as "traitor", "scum", "coward", "cheat", "liar" etc. are used as...weapons?  I've lorst the plurt!  Eek!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:48:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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