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All of these seem to make sense only if you take a good chunk of Russia in to weigh in countries. Russia is not really part of Europe. It's part of European history and culture, but it does not consider itself to be part of Europe, and it certainly won't be part of the EU for the foreseeable future.

Nah, the center of Europe is now somewhere in Western Germany.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 04:54:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Geography is not about subjective feelings.

"it does not consider itself to be part of Europe"

We were presented Russian polls to the contrary during the Russian debates.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 06:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, the most recently determined of these centres of Europe, the Lithuanian one (only from 1992), was determined by a French geographer.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 06:28:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But if you accept the geographic definition of Europe going to Urals, why should it have changed at anytime in the past century?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 06:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because I guarantee you the people who "calculate the center of continents" use no more sophisticated methods than drawing the contour of the continent on cardboard, cutting it out, and balancing the resulting shape on a pin. The variations come from the different projections used to draw the maps.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 12th, 2006 at 06:08:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not only: some weighed the borders of Europe (i.e. the result was 'equidistant' from the extremities), there can be differences in how much shallow water is included, and Northern Russia wasn't all that well known when the earliest were determined.

Tho' the Wiki says that the Soviets' re-determination got the same result as the last Austro-Hungarian one, that village in the Western Ukraine.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 12th, 2006 at 07:28:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 06:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe or maybe not, but it is almost certainly about political agendas.  Atleast when we are drawing boundaries.  And one cannot decide the center of something without drawing boundaries.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 09:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia is not really part of Europe.
With opinions like this being throuwn around, it's no wonder all the Russians disappeared.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 06:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a bit like The Economist with its energy price figures.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 06:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What did I say to deserve such a nasty insult? We're not talking facts here, only opinions!

I'll stick with it: Russia does not have a European telephone prefix - it has its own, like any self-respecting continent. Russia is big enough to be something else altogether, and it is a European power, but it is not in Europe.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 06:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll stick with it: Russia does not have a European telephone prefix - it has its own, like any self-respecting continent.

What are you talking about?

There are no continental prefixes for line telephones. If you meant zones, who cares - the rest of Europe is on two zones already, and so is the rest of Asia. Meanwhile, looking at the contry code for base stations of wireless phones, Russia is in the European zone.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 12th, 2006 at 07:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You do remember that they only showed up when they felt really insulted. This must not be enough to make them reappear (or maybe we need someone else to add on to my ignorant insults).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 07:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd really like someone to define, definitively, "Europe," before we go making statements of that nature.  

Jerome's "opinion" is in no way is offensive to Russia.  Whether Russia is in Europe or not is an age old question and last I heard, no one has had the last word on it.  Not only do many Russians not consider Russia implicitly part of Europe, many Europeans would absolutely shudder at the thought of including Russia in the EU.  

So to be blunt, it is convenient to include Russia in "Europe" when attempting to de-ghettoize the former Communist nations of Europe (saying it is not correct to call it "Eastern Europe" which I think one can only find offense with due to the political and socio-economic implications of the label, not the geographic ones.)  But when it comes to accepting Russia with open arms into the European political club, suddenly we can all agree that Russia is it's own thing.  And I think, frankly, Russia would prefer to have it that way.  And I know they play the European card for adcancing their own intersts too.

It's just perverse that we would be asked to accept outright that Russia, any part of it, is de facto part of "Europe."

Is "Europe" geographical, political, cultural, what?  Not the topic of my diary but I do think the issue needs to be addressed.  If only to illustrate the problems with making such assertions.

To me, Europe is a goal, the EU is a governing entity, and everything else is up for debate.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat Feb 11th, 2006 at 09:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I never heard anyone doubt the geographical meaning of Europe. In geography, Europe is the continent delimited on the East by the Ural mountain and river, the Caspian Sea, and the Caucasus. (Check Wiki.) The cultural realm is another thing, but let me point at Turkey, another country mostly in Asia but partly in Europe, whose joining is also discussed.

The EU is yet another thing, where I must mention that the EU existed long enough on a much smaller part of Europe, and people in many of its members weren't exactly happy about some or all of the 'new members'. Furthermore, there are other international organisations - for example the Council for Europe, the OSCE, and of course the 'most important', UEFA (football) and Eurovision (silly song contest), both of which include both Turkey and Russia.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 12th, 2006 at 07:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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