Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Huh?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:12:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Prison labour.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that widespread?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:19:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:26:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't work out you meant in the US rather than Europe. I thought for a moment there was something I was missing about the European prison systems.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:40:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Sweden you work or study when you are in prison. How can you redeem yourself without a solid dose of Lutheran work ethic?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 08:08:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not that it matters for these comparisons, but there are estimates of enormous prison labour effects on the Chinese economy.

Prison labour isn't common in the UK, we prefer to turn our prisoners into either drug addicts or more skilled criminals.

I've seen estimates for the US prison labour population as being around 100,000. I don't know if that could be said to represent a an impact on the accuracy of the "employment rate" figures.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe 1.3% of all males 25-54 are in jail in the US, this makes a noticeable difference.

Plus I see no reason whatsoever to not use the real population number as denominator here.

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:38:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because they don't count people who aren't available for work.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RIght, but is the fact that 100,000 of those 1.3% are actually working a significant distortion of the figures?

Or to ask bluntly, 1.3% = how many men?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:42:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the 1.3% reduction in the denominator that matters.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, up to a point. But in terms of prison labour as an issue, the 100,000 matters too.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:49:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
1.3% of the US male population should be 1M [to one significant figure ;-P ]

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:52:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, if you don't count the unavailable that's the definition of "active population" (which includes unemployed) and which is of course unreliable as discussed many times here.

I still see no reason not to stick with the real population numbers.

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 07:29:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't say for Europe, but in the US, it's expected that inmates will have some sort of job, and that hopefully, they'll learn useful skills from it.

For many years, this was how states mades their car license plates, and in the Southern states, there is a whole culture of prison farms and small entreprises.  Since many US prisions are now managed by the private sector, they really want to make prisoners work, and find ways to boost the profits of the prison corporation.

For more about the privitization of American prisions, see Observer article.  Back in the late 1990's companies that had assumed contracts to run prisons tried to do so on the cheap, and lost control of prisions.  There was quite a bit of what can only be called sadism, and eventually in New Mexico, the state police had to be called in to retake  one of the prisions that this private company lost control of.  Talk about a market failure.

Private companies have absolutely no business running prisions or any other function that involves lending them the legitimate lethal power of the state.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The state has legitimate lethal power?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:40:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

That should be obvious.  It's the only entity that can kill without justification.   It's a basic definition of state power in political science.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the definition is a monopoly on violence.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:49:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's another way of stating it.

Recent history should teach us that states will pretty much do as they damn well please, and where private individuals have to ask permission the state does not.

There's a growing divide beween the US and EU on this.  My country has the august company of nations like China, Mynamar, and Saudi Arabia in continuing to execute prisoners.  And the application of that penalty is applied disproportionately to people of color, so that a black man has is much more likely to be sent to his death for a crime that in many cases is no worse than comparable acts by white criminals.

I disagree entirely with the death penalty, and think that the power of the state to kill its own needs to be limited, and must never be loaned out to private individuals (look at the history of mercenaries in Iraq, they basically act as though they have sovereign immunity.) The Bush Administration and a large section of the US military is adamant that because they exercise power in the name of state, their actions can by definition not be criminal.  It's the reason that the US Congress passed a bill authorizing the invasion of the Netherlands if a US soldier is brought before the International Criminal Court. And it's the reason the US will never sign the ICC.

You know what the problem with standing militaries is?   These soldiers get all dressed up and then have nowhere to go, if you don't kill somebody somewhere after a while people begin to question why they're paying for all these bombs when that money could be used to provide healthcare for all or allow all students to go to college at no cost to them.  Clearly if you have an interests in keeping a large military, you have to have something for them to do. And as a practical matter, the ability to kill your adversary is a fairly effective bargaining tool.

There's also an argument, that the principal US export is security.  That other nations hold US dollars as a way to allow the US to spend beyond its means, because the US provides a collective good, security, that no other nation can provide at such low cost.  It's one of the implications presented in a book called "The Pentagon's New Map", and it's really intriguing when you think about it.  

The current level of globalization and the emerging mulipolarity and China and other countries come to the point that they can challenge the US hasn't really existed since the spring of 1914, and we all know how that story ended.  When I had to select my areas of study for my masters, I choose comparative and American.  American because that means I can find a job  once I have a PhD and comparitive because I beleive that in 10 years the neoliberl framework of the current globalization will have collapsed.  Hopefully around rather than on us.

If you really think that as an empirical matter the power of the state is limited, wait until Bush bombs Iran.  Imagine the world's suprise when America drops a tactial nuclear weapon to eliminate fortified underground facilities.  There will be a lot of bitching, outrage, and then nothing will happen.  And the only way that's going to change is when the seams in the global economy begin to unravel.  Eventually the trade imbalance between the US and China will have to be corrected, and that correction will mean the collapse of the American dollar, and the collapse of the Chinese economy when they lose their comparative advantage.  And that could easily plunge China into divison and warlordism.

And do you seriously think that anyone is going to challenge Bush?  The United States?  Right or wrong, the current administration has no near peer, there is no country that can successfully challenge US military power, and has the power projection to pose a serious threat to the American mainland. Economics though is another matter.  As an empirical matter, the US government and most other governments reserve the right to kill people when they challenge the established order. And no one can bring them to justice and that's why they do it. Without a countervailing power, that can't be changed.  The only change that can come is from within.  

Which is why international relations is largely meaningless, because the real game is in the nation's internal politics.  2006 looks to be a landslide year that will remove Bush's majority in Congress.  However, so long as the imperial view of the presidency prevails change will not be forthcoming, and I'm not sure there is anyone in American politics willing to lead the charge to reinstall legislative checks on insane behavior by the American president (like attacking countries without provocation, without justification.)  And the poison that has been laid abroad is coming back home.  

This post and everything else on the internet is being reviewed for national security threats by computers in the US, and the US government is holding more than 14,000 people worldwide without charges for years.  Some of them American citizens. And the power to restore what's been lost requires more than a change of the government of the day.  It requires serious efforts to reinstall controls on the power of the state, which is much harder.

I've rambled enough I think, this is what you get for catching me nursing a hangover and unable to sleep.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 06:46:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should post this as a diary.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 06:47:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I totally second that.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 07:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hate to be a "me too", but this I'd like to read again, so, me too.
by Number 6 on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 07:53:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the reason that the US Congress passed a bill authorizing the invasion of the Netherlands if a US soldier is brought before the International Criminal Court.

Say what?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 07:09:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
American Servicemembers' Protection Act, better known as the Hague Invasion Act.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 07:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like an interesting diary for us non-political-scientists. "Without justification" doesn't sound right.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:49:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See wikipedia.

It is actually interesting to consider the flip side, which is the theories of coercion put forward by anarchists (on the left and on the right). Anarchocapitalists seem to advocate a free market for coercive power.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bradford Plumer: The Joys of Prison Labor

The prison-industrial complex, now employs some 80,000 prisoners, and the number's rapidly growing. A large number of those workers earn less than minimum wage . . . ne might reasonably wonder whether this captive, ultra-cheap labor force might be pulling down wages and standards for everyone else.

by TGeraghty on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 09:52:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:21:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to quote a source that will not be suspect of anti-American or liberal bias:

USA Today: Inmates vs. outsourcing (7/7/2004)

David Day has a bounce in his step and a glint in his eye unexpected in someone who makes nearly 400 telemarketing calls a day for less than $200 a month. That's because he has a coveted job where few exist: behind bars.

...

About a dozen states -- Oregon, Arizona, California and Iowa, among others -- have call centers in state and federal prisons, underscoring a push to employ inmates in telemarketing jobs that might otherwise go to low-wage countries such as India and the Philippines. Arizona prisoners make business calls, as do inmates in Oklahoma. A call center for the DMV is run out of an all-female prison in Oregon. Other companies are keeping manufacturing jobs in the USA. More than 150 inmates in a Virginia federal prison build car parts for Delco Remy International. Previously, some of those jobs were overseas.

...

Market conditions seem to favor prisons. After declining for years, call-center jobs in the USA increased several hundred, to about 360,000, last year. At the same time, more white-collar jobs are going offshore than researchers originally thought. About 830,000 U.S. service-sector jobs, from telemarketers to software engineers, will move abroad by the end of 2005, up 41% from previous predictions, says Forrester Research.

And that's nice jobs, making phone calls. But there is also what we would identify with forced labour.

Wikipedia: Reintroduction  and criticism of chain gangs

Some states, such as Alabama and Arizona, have re-introduced the chain gang. In recent years, Maricopa County, Arizona, which is the county that covers Phoenix, Arizona, has drawn attention from human rights groups for its harsh treatment of prisoners, and in particular, its creation of chain gangs for women. Arizona's modern chain gangs, rather than chipping rocks or other non-productive tasks, often do real work of economic benefit to a correctional department. One of the major issues is that the gangs are forced to live and work outside in oppressive desert heat.

Prisoners are given only two meals a day, must every day work in the harsh Arizona desert, and are not afforded any coffee, cigarettes, salt, pepper, ketchup, or organized recreation. If they suffer from heatstroke or dehydration in the extreme desert conditions, they have to pay $10 to receive basic medical attention. To write their families, they must use special postcards with the sheriff's menacing picture on them, and the corrections department spends more money per dog than per prisoner on food. Most of the inmates facing these conditions were convicted of minor offences since they are in county jail as opposed to state prison.

A year after reintroducing the chain gang in 1995, Alabama was forced to again abandon the practice pending a lawsuit from, among other organizations, the Southern Poverty Law Center. "They realized that chaining them together was inefficient; that it was unsafe," said attorney Richard Cohen of the organization. However, as late as 2000, Alabama Prison Commissioner, Ron Jones has again proposed reintroducing the chain gang. Like historical chain gangs, their reintroduced cousins have been compared to slavery in academic circles.



Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:25:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
work stopped.

In many cases, these inmate were taking orders including gathering credit card info, the risk therein should have been obvious, but the idea that the marginal reduction in the cost of labor might be offset by customers refusing to buy your product after they hear on the news about indentity theft by prisoners working in call centers never dawned on them.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 05:43:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series