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Turkey is Muslim in the sense that France is Catholic.
We had the same debate two weeks ago.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 12:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suspect we'll be repeating it regularly over the next few years.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 12:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Turkey, the State pays imams' wages, and provides religious education in public schools (article 24 of that country's Constitution). The State has a Department of Religious Affairs (article 136 of the Constitution), directly under the Prime Minister bureaucratically, responsible for organizing the Muslim religion - including what will and will not be mentioned in sermons given at mosques, especially on Fridays.

The Alsace-Moselle area...is still under the pre-1905 regime established of the Concordat, which provides for the public subsidy of the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Reformed church and the Jewish Religion as well as public education in those religions. An original trait of this area is that priests are paid by the state; the bishops are named by the President on the proposal of the Pope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

Sounds like trouble on the horizon...

by asdf on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 10:45:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 02:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Turkey, the State pays imams' wages, and provides religious education in public schools (article 24 of that country's Constitution). The State has a Department of Religious Affairs (article 136 of the Constitution), directly under the Prime Minister bureaucratically, responsible for organizing the Muslim religion - including what will and will not be mentioned in sermons given at mosques, especially on Fridays.
Muct be because the German government is not involved in levying Church Taxes, or because Spain or Italy don't have concordats. All that is in the past in Europe, but not in Turkey.

Except that it isn't.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 04:01:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess the reason Colman (and I) don't understand asdf's comment is his second blockquote, which shows that the Alsace region in France also has non-total separation of church and state (from the quote, a system similar to the German one).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 04:21:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I saw the "pre-1905" bit I interpreted the comment to be a parallel with WWI. Now I don't understand the comment either ;-P

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 04:46:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, first, because the claim is made here constantly that Europe is a secular region, when it clearly isn't. You can argue about church attendance, but the statistics are funky in both places. Meanwhile, there are explicit connections between chuch and state in many countries, and open funding of churches by the state. From this side of the pond, where the government is both formally and in practice secular, European claims in that direction seem questionable at best.

Second, the potential conflict is that if Turkey is pressured to reduce her support for Islam, then she may fairly ask why France, Germany, Britain, Spain, et al. are allowed to support their churches. At that point, who gives in? Do the French cathedrals close due to having no members, and get turned into restaurants? (As happens in the U.S.) Does England allow the next king to be Catholic?

My view is that adding such a huge new member to the EU will cause big changes on both sides--and Europe is not officially admitting it. Europe may plan to press existing EU ideals onto Turkey, but an obvious reflex will be for Turkey to press her ideals on to Europe.

Specifically, how will European countries divide the financial support that they give to churches? Will it be by population, i.e. Muslim churches get, say 70% of the government money and Christian churches get, say, 30%--because there are so few Christians? Or will Christian churches get 90% of the money because Europeans are Christians after all?

Will the EU church-supporting fund have to be significantly enlarged to fix up all those Turkish mosques that desperately need repair? After all, with Turkey's huge population, and that population almost entirely Islamic, equity demands that EU cultural maintenance be distributed in proportion.
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=588

by asdf on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 10:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why can't Church support be left to the member states, as it is now?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 10:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The url down at the bottom of my previous post was about an EU program that supports cultural artifacts--largely churches. I was suggesting that if Turkey were a member, then perhaps the bulk of that money would go to Turkey, because a.) their buildings are presumably in worse shape, and b.) they claim >90% church membership, and c.) they would be a big chunk of the total EU population.
by asdf on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 10:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The support for cultural artifacts is based on cultural value, not church attendance. The grants are apparently in the framework of EU structural funds. The structural funds are allocated on the basis of regions, and the difference between the EU average and the regions' average GDP. It is true that would Turkey join, it would get a rather large share of structural funds, while a number of regions in other countries would move above the thrershold of applicability for EU grants. This happened during the last EU accession too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 at 04:16:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and the difference between the EU average and the regions' average GDP

Roughly. There are other measures used too, like the state of the infrastructure. This is why your example, Ireland, was still eligible.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 at 04:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good old Ireland: high income, low wealth.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 at 04:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about saving, investment and consumption? Is the high income being used to increase the wealth?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 at 05:53:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, lots of infrastructure building going on. But take a trip through Germany or the UK and compare it to Ireland - we're still way behind on our infrastructural stock - comes of spending fifty years avoiding developing an economy.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 at 05:56:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From this side of the pond, where the government is ... in practice secular.

Um. So religion isn't an issue in public life at all in the US?

Second, the potential conflict is that if Turkey is pressured to reduce her support for Is

Who's asking Turkey to?

My view is that adding such a huge new member to the EU will cause big changes on both sides--and Europe is not officially admitting it.

Oh no, not change. How will we survive? Of course, adding 12 new members hasn't changed a thing.

Will the EU church-supporting fund

What are you talking about? Is it raining strawmen where you are or something? If there are mosques of architectural merit that need help then they'll fall under that sort of scheme.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 10:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I note churches have even been converted to discos in the Netherlands.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 11:03:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And in London.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 at 05:53:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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