Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Thanks for your honest reply, rg.

I think the Ira Shor thing is about getting students who would otherwise clam up to speak up, to say what they think.  It's also about action: those who are already ready to say what they think might be ready to do something about it.

The conditions are such that any reasonable person can figure out at least a few of the things that need to be donw.  When you add it all up, IMHO, we need a wholesale reconstruction of society, because of society's dysfunctional relationship to nature.  That was what I was trying to say in a diary I wrote for DailyKos here.

And we all agreed that the family environment is primary, and the local structural environment is also primary.  Together they forge the individual.  Moments come and go, but fixed opinions are hard to dislodge.

What I read you as saying here, is, that people are positioned a certain way, because of how they came through the world.  I couldn't agree more.  But as teachers, we try our best to create conditions for them so that they are free to do something meaningfully good with that positioning of theirs.

Take a look, for instance, at the writings of Derrick Jensen.  Jensen believes, IMHO, in something theoretically vague and radically unworkable, but that's what I think anarcho-primitivism is about.  Where Jensen scores his points with me is in being an effective writer, in positioning his stories so as to dislodge those "everything's OK with the status quo" feelings you might have had while wandering through life.

And that's what teaching is about.  Most teachers in my, American, society prepare the individual for a lifetime of individualistic consumerism.  Perhaps things are different for you; perhaps they are the same.  (The argument covers all bases, doesn't it?)  At any rate, teaching is about the future.  I think it's high time we teachers are honest about this.  Another diary on this subject was on DailyKos here.

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 09:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When you add it all up, IMHO, we need a wholesale reconstruction of society, because of society's dysfunctional relationship to nature.

I'd suggest that society is in a state of upheaval--and has been for perhaps a few hundred years.  The reconstruction is ongoing.  Education is one of the forces guiding that change.

But as teachers, we try our best to create conditions for them so that they are free to do something meaningfully good with that positioning of theirs.

I don't have a sense of being outside the constraints of positioning--my family upbringing, the town where I grew up, the people I went to school with--though I hope in a jungian sense I can bring my unconscious thoughts about these to light, to individuate a bit from the reactionary (small r) attitudes I picked up along the way.  

Asking people to do something meaningfully good begs the question: "What is good?"

Unless one is an ethics teacher, and perhaps esp. when one is an ethics teacher this question then gets subsumed...by a reversal: maybe, "What do you think is good?", then, having listened to the reply, turning to the next student, "And what do you think is good?"--round the room...but it's too much of an abstraction (part of the philosophy of...ah, moral philosophy...yes)...most teachers don't teach moral philosophy, they teach specific subjects to specific levels.

With adults (and with kids) my approach would be: We are here to learn X (Y,Z etc.)  I know it, and you don't, so I'll be in charge.  If you don't wish to study, I would rather you didn't come to my lectures...

But as you say above, sometimes teachers need to get bums on seats...which makes me question curriculae (?)

Curriculums.

I believe in selection--but as a human process between the student and the teacher (or, if external verification is required, an examining board or person.)  Part of the conversation was about wind instruments, how hard it is to play one, but once you get the technique you go from Grade 1 to Grade 5.  There only used to be levels, 3,6, and 8 for the bassoon...but now it starts at one, and schools want kids to sit the grades...ah, private schools I mean...

But how does selection play out with a discussion of inequalities and social deprivations?

So, students who are unable to express themselves...get a chance to express themselves...that is the work of all teachers.  But I suggest that a teacher is not a surrogate parent (another big part of the discussion was how to avoid becoming a social worker to the student...how to keep the focus on the music)...so...not a surrogate parent, but an adult figure from the world beyond theirs, an adult with specific skills and who is ready (and trained) to pass (at least some of) those skills onto...me!  If I'm the student.

Specifically, I don't think there is an "answer" that some people refused to teach or be taught, though there are ideologies that fight about what should be said and done at school.  But the subject is key--

Mr. Triloqvist, if you're reading....The Key is the key!  The subject is form and content--

Or sommat ;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 03:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You say:

With adults (and with kids) my approach would be: We are here to learn X (Y,Z etc.)  I know it, and you don't, so I'll be in charge.  If you don't wish to study, I would rather you didn't come to my lectures...

When Ira Shor hands a certain modicum of power to his students, he recognizes that the teacher-talks, students-listen structure leaves students unprepared for participation in democracy. Shor:

Students come of age without exercising the democratic arts needed to negotiate authority in diverse settings.  Not developing democratic habits, they lack experience in governing public affairs, in taking responsibility for policy-making, in what could be thought of as trying on civic authority for size.  Here is how one of my female students (a 30-year-old white education major who went to technical college in Germany) described her awkwardness when I invited her and others to negotiate a learning contract with me for their final grades: "I feel unease judging the learning contract proposal."(Cassiodorus' note here: see how Shor started the class described above.)  "In the last twenty-five years, nobody ever asked me for my opinion on this topic.  (I certainly complained to my classmates about the structure in the classroom.)"  She had lived in two nations describing themselves as democracies, yet it seems she was never a constituent of her own education, only a recipient of it who complained privately to peers. (32-33)

There's something more going on about education than the delivery of information through lectures.  The "Siberian syndrome" exists because, once again in Shor's words:

... in the face of undemocratic practices, students do assert themselves, informally and subversively, by telling the teacher what they like and don't like, by disrupting class, by resistant nonparticipation (Siberia), by faking interest, by breaking the rules (cheating on tests, buying term papers, copying someone else's homework, reading Cliff's Notes instead of books, by cleverly "playing the angles" to "beat the system" (like manipulating the teacher to get by with a grade or conning an advisor to get into a closed course or for some financial aid), and sometimes by protest actions like walkouts, sit-ins, rallies, marches, newspaper campaigns, petitions, or lawsuits. (32)

Community college teaching in the States, which is what Shor does, isn't about conveying information to willing students.  If the students really wanted to learn stuff, one could easily reason, they would go around the teacher, and figure it out for themselves.  Or they would hire a tutor on an ad hoc basis, which is something different.  Maybe students in an orchestra need a conductor; but a conductor does more than a teacher does, just like a tutor does more than a teacher does.  No, community college teaching in the States (and I say this having done it myself for four years) is about being an appointed "authority figure" in a system where students are accumulating credentials and degrees so they can get better jobs.  It's about being a cog in a machine which is being used, intentionally, to forward corporate domination and student conformity.  Teaching students who actually want to learn stuff is a "cake" job; anyone who really knows the stuff can do it.  This isn't that.  This is an economic machinery, ripe for politically-charged intervention.

And so, in teaching community college, we confront the system.  We can see how well the machineries of corporate domination and student conformity work on a global level, btw, by observing the human race as it dismantles ecosystems around the globe, especially in countries subject to onerous IMF-imposed structural adjustment programs, preparing the ground for an ecological disaster of horrendous proportions.  Welcome to our corporate-dominated world.  

Now, certainly there must be some sort of public outrage against all this, just as there should have been some sort of public outrage in the dystopian world I painted at the beginning of my diary.  Is democracy going to stop the ecosystem-dismantlers before they ruin it all, or for that matter the Bush administration with its drive to dictatorship?  Well, democracy has been shoved into dormancy 'round the world, aided by the co-optation of the so-called "Left" into a "political class."  Kees van der Pijl describes this accurately, if with excessive abstraction.

If we really want to do something about all this, we will have to encourage some home-grown democracy, as exemplified by the antigloblization protesters cited in van der Pijl's article linked above.  One way to do this is by intervention into working-class scenes like, say, community college in the States.  So this is what Ira Shor helps us do.

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 09:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
he recognizes that the teacher-talks, students-listen structure leaves students unprepared for participation in democracy

When the teacher is talking, the students should listen--otherwise, why is the teacher talking?  If that's the only thing the teacher does then in the process

Overview
Walk through
Controlled Practice
Free Practice
Conclusion

(Or variations thereof)

we lose the centre and get Overview-chat chat chat chat chat chat [stop doing that!] chat chat [Give it back to her!] chat chat-->conclusion.

But yes, I was talking about tutors perhaps, people who teach other people how to play musical instruments.  You can't learn that from books alone (and I think that must be true of most subjects and for most students.)

One way to do this is by intervention into working-class scenes like, say, community college in the States.

Are these..they're adults, right?...are they there of their own volition?  Although you don't want to be one of the grindstones at the mill, and strength to yer elbow in that, there is a didactic ==> results (or lack of) element to teaching...so if the course is called "Democracy in...", then a deep analysis of structures etc...and acting them out in the class [an aside: the best training I received was by a woman who used the methods she was explaining--but from the beginning, before we knew what the methods were, so as she explained them to us...ah ha!  [Low energy] lightbulbs lit...ah ha!  Practicing what you...teach...

So maybe it depends on the subject.  Take, say, car mechanics.  If people sign up because they want to work with cars, then at some point the functioning of the internal combustion engine will become part of the discussion, but then...latest tech. will also become part of the discussion, if the teacher is clued-up on the latest tech.  That way the students get skills that they can maybe use to keep themselves out from under those grinding stones...

But yes, yes, the only way for the students to learn democracy is by participation, and a teacher will demonstrate by their methods how they percieve democracy.

Or sommat ;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 09:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series