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excellent diary...

soooo  glad you didn't insist nukes are the answer this time!

i cant remember if i was triggered by an ET poster to this:

http://domesticfuel.com/?p=418

but i like it...

i expect the weaving of the branches to provide material for baskets and as frame for wattle-and-daub construction.

the explosion of wildlife from this practice would be very positive, imo.

as for nukes....they seem the absolute opposite to a patchwork approach of solutions like this.

i loved that they are exporting the idea to afghanistan, btw.

i have also read that jojoba can grow and produce one of the world's finest oils even in desert conditions.

conservation is also a patchwork thing so far, but if governments put SERIOUS incentives into it it could benefit plenty from a top down approach.

lightbulbs and bricks in the loo are fine, but the real massive waste to be throttled is cities and highways clogged with people going to places they'd rather not go (crappy,meaniningless jobs), and millions of trucks carrying around goods that are not really necessary for human health and happiness, indeed more often the opposite.

people wasting hours a day stressing in stop'n'go traffic, breathing monoxide, trying to 'get ahead'...

as more people become disgusted with the squalor and excess, the crime and the crowding, they will seek out lifestyles that back off consumption and increase the satisfaction that comes from seeing how little energy one can use, and still be happy.

the first world is an energy junkie, holding up the 4/5ths of the world who possess less armaments for the junk they'd be better off being weaned from.

we will learn...but the only chance for anything remotely resembling a soft landing is if more people wake up....

this consumerist predatory mentality that is trying to treat people just like oil or cotton, a commodity...

useful only insofar as it pays to 'use' them.

following nuclear power might save us, but what would be the social price we'd pay for that?

<shiver>

not every country is as 'civilised' as france...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 01:04:17 PM EST
excellent diary...

soooo  glad you didn't insist nukes are the answer this time!

Manufacturing Dimethyl Ether (from, say, water and atmorpheric C02, though there are other raw materials) requires a lot of energy. DME fuel becomes a store of energy, not a source. Now, where do you propose all that energy is going to come from? Note that we are not only talking about replacing all fossil-fuel electrical power plants, but also replacing all the fossil fuels used in transportation with synthetic fuels, at a net energy loss. The scale is staggering.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 03:36:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
----but also replacing all the fossil fuels used in transportation with synthetic fuels, at a net energy loss. The scale is staggering.

her we go with the 3-card trick again...

i'm not suggesting we try and conjure a way to repeat the wasteful follies of the past.

we.can't.go.on.this.way...

this next part is not to you, mig...

seems there are 2 kinds of people...those who wouldn't mind working outside and harder, so as to avoid nukes...

or those who want to keep the whole mad joyride going, warm in their cubicles, cancer rates through the roof, in their atomic city-on-a-hill version of now, the only change being there's less smoke in the air...

bif effing deal, if we have to have a secret police orwell-state to go along with it.

folks might think i'm advocating going back to living with the pigs downstairs, but i'm not.

they're upstairs!

lol

running this insane topdown lunatic asylum, and ruddy badly to boot.

do you have any idea how much less sick a society we'd be if we had to work outside more?

going the nuclear way is such a cop-out to the corporations who put us in this mess in the first place, installing ecosuicidal idiocies like the suburban lifestyle, the daily commute that adds up to 10 years of your best behind the wheel serving as a guinea-pig for the modern equivalent of a slow-mo zyklon-b saturation experiment, (sorry godwin!), 2000-mile salads, astronomical military budgets, when intelligent resource management for the common weal shuffles far behind, relatively ignored.

my rants stream uselessly into cyberspace, but i think the advocates for a nuclear future, complete with their diatribes against personal heroes of mine like greenpeace, hugely underestimate the resistance to such an idea will bring, and the beefing up of an already kafkaesque police state dynamic that will willingly, extravagantly escalate to meet it.

that way be dragons, indeed,,,

we waste precious time and energy that could be used researching and promulgating longterm sustainable solutions that would conversely add to and lubricate the modern social flowering of autonomy, sharing, trust, and eventually peace, a natural peace that has the robust backup of natural renewability, not the topdown superimposition of order by force.

i agree france is somewhat anomolous, and i'm grateful for the lessening of co2...it hasn't become a police state...the cancer rates aren't higher than less nuked countries -right?

France's Superphénix, the world's largest fast-breeder, was shut down in 1987 after 20 tons of liquid sodium, which explodes on contact with air or water, leaked from the cooling drum. Because breeder reactors in France are prized for their ability to make high quality bomb material for military purposes, as well as civilian, their operation is clothed in secrecy. France has no "Freedom-of-Information Act." Information to ordinary citizens is limited to events which cannot be hidden.

http://www.ratical.org/radiation/CoNP/1NPkills.html

where's the EU-wide oversight on this?

i find this sophie's choice between nukes and coal ridiculous and insulting to humanity's creativity....and self-respect.

when government REALLY intercedes for conservation on a massive scale, only then will i be convinced that the pols are not shills for big business, no more, no less.

and though i bow to the rational comments of jerome on this thorny subject, (and admire his very french art of diplomacy), it is deanander whose concentrated wisdom has encouraged me that i'm not alone on this blog thinking this way.

i tend to a bluesky vision, because, (probably naively, )i still have a lot of faith in humanity to figure out a way forward, whose harbinger is these very internets we're channeling our beings into, colliding into new nodes of knowledge.

unfortunately for the species, much knowledge is not yet power, whilst malevolent ignorance very much is.

put it down to kali-yuga, i guess!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 02:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
looking for "respect," you won't get any here.

I always hate it when appeals to ignorance are phrased in terms of "respect."

Talk about a "lunatic asylum," that site, www.ratical.org is so mindless, I really don't know where to begin.

The choice is between coal and nuclear, whether or not you or the illiterates at ratical.com like it.    This is not a matter of opinion so much as it is a matter of physics.  

The matter is pretty clear to anyone who can think.   Germany decided to "phase out" nuclear - based on appeals, again, to ignorance - and immediately started building new coal plants, plants it says "won't count" for carbon dioxide emissions.

In any case, I'll bet one zillion euros that you're not going to be heading out to Chad this week to begin living a lifestyle that involves "working outside and harder."  

by NNadir on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 02:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The choice is between coal and nuclear, whether or not you or the illiterates at ratical.com like it.    This is not a matter of opinion so much as it is a matter of physics.

Please spell out the physics of this?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 02:45:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's really simple. Measure the ability to produce energy in the volume that has to be digged each year, and coal and nuclear beat everything else for the same amount of energy.

But it is more a question of biology than physics. Coal = big dick, nuclear = bigger dick.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 06:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have only three base-load, 24/7 ways of meeting electricity demand: fossil fuels (mainly coal), hydro (a finite resource), and nuclear power.

In Europe, the countries with the lowest per capita greenhouse gas emissions are the countries getting their electricity from nuclear and hydro.  Denmark has high per capita emissions because it gets most of its electricity from burning coal.  Germany also has high per-capita emissions.

Less digging, transport, etc. for nuclear than for coal.

It takes a ton of ore to make four to six pounds of yellowcake, which, after going through enrichment and fabrication processes, becomes a pellet of uranium oxide fuel weighing .24 ounces--about seven grams.

Uranium ore is so dense that a ton of it could fit in the back of a pick up truck with room to spare.

One fuel pellet contains the same amount of energy as
*    149 gallons of oil,
*    157 gallons of regular gasoline
*    17,000 cubic feet of natural gas, or
*    1,780 pounds of coal

In terms of energy resource, a single uranium miner brings out in a single day ten thousand times more than a single coal miner in a single day.

Life cycle emissions from nuclear power are comparable to those from wind power. See
http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/pdf/fdm1181.pdf

by Plan9 on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 12:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know why mechanical storage cannot be used to even out the intermittency of renewable energy sources and thtus provide baseload capacity. (wiki)

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 12:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the page came up googling for figures on radiation effects stats in france, to contrast with the rest of the planet.

i wasn't asking you to review that website, i saw that page and read it.

you are welcome to refute the facts in it -that page, and i should like to learn from you, as you indouhtedly know much i don't.

problem is, your 'tude comes off to me as hostile and deprecatory.

no need, methinks, unless you have an axe to grind.

anyway, you've decided...

lucky you

i like your writing and i'm glad you're here.

even if our respective worldviews are decidedly asynchronous...

i hope to heaven you are wrong, because it takes more than good writing to convince.

i listen more to <i<tone</i>.

and i'm not alone...

and, nor are you.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 03:28:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that this quote:


France's Superphénix, the world's largest fast-breeder, was shut down in 1987 after 20 tons of liquid sodium, which explodes on contact with air or water, leaked from the cooling drum. Because breeder reactors in France are prized for their ability to make high quality bomb material for military purposes, as well as civilian, their operation is clothed in secrecy. France has no "Freedom-of-Information Act." Information to ordinary citizens is limited to events which cannot be hidden.

is so blatantly incorrect and/or manipulative that it's hard to have a rational and patient reaction to it. Anybody that wrote the above will never be convinced by rational argument.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 06:08:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the correct response would be to say, "That's not a credible source--here's a more credible version of events."?

Coz we can all be fooled by non-credible (but maybe credible-sounding?  I can't say in this case...I didn't click the link but...) Sources...if they're not credible, t'is better, I think to offer access to another more credible.

Unless one is an expert on everything.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 06:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was my reaction when I read that diary last week about Trittin and Germany, so for the sake of reciprocity, I would be curious to read what is your problem with which detail. (I can identify two incorrect points in it, but could replace them with other points.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 06:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and I know what you mean... but i'll disagree on the equal validity of the substance in the two cases.

There is so much innuendo in the above paragraph that I don't want to dignify it with a reply. It's like saying that "dihydrogen oxyde, an oxygen-rich liquid used to cool reactors, is sent out in vast quantities in the atmosphere and rivers, even though oxygen is the main component of most explosive devices. And these rejections are never debated, nor even declared!"

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 06:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the last one seemed to me like "The silly Jospin government tried to get the Muslims under control with neighbourhood police. But see what's the result today: riots and riot police!".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 07:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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