Would Scotland's leaving the union be good for Europe? | 83 comments (83 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 0)

Very informative, as always. Thank you. My question, actually, was formulated as a provocation to Jerome, but he sensibly hasn't taken the bait.

It is interesting that you write about these things that happened to Poland as very real and significant, whereas in an earlier exchange you said, "All nations are social constructs. Period." The usual view in philosophy is that either you are given an access to reality through your individual experience (this is empiricism), or reality is "socially constructed", in which case there are many different, equally valid (or invalid) realities. The philosopher who worked out how social constructs can be objectively true was Hegel. So I would suggest that you look at him more carefully than you have up until now. That would allow you to view the experiences of Poland as objectively true, while still being social constructs.

I might as well mention at this point that both my parents are Russian and were born in Russia soon after the revolution, although they grew up outside the Soviet Union.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 04:40:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (4.00 / 2)

Personally I don't think nations are social constructs that are objectively true. But this won't keep different individuals with different concepts of the nation by the same name from feeling prode or feeling wronged or killing in the name of that nation.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 04:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 0)

By the way, as someone of Russian origin, I am curious if you ever heard of the 1848/9 intervention in Hungary. (I guess it is dwarfed by the major 19th century Russian wars with the Ottoman Empire and its occasional Western allies, but special in the lack of own power interests included.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 04:55:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (4.00 / 2)

It's considered one of the stupidest foreign policy moves in Russian history, made on wrongly understood obligations (mostly of honor), and a proper prelude to the catastrophe of 1856.

by Sargon on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 09:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 1)

I probably learned about it in history class, but now I'm afraid I can't recall it specifically. I just have a general recollection that after the Congress of Vienna, Russia would intervene in Central Europe to prop up absolutist governments.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 01:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 1)

All identities are social constructs (not just national ones - class, gender, sexual orientation, political, etc.). But just because I realize that doesn't mean that I don't have any (and we all have them). Objective truths are assembled and understood through the lens of various values to create those identities. There is no one Polish identity. Mine is largely that of the liberal intelligentsia and really bears little resemblance to the national identity of the folks I speak of above. I feel on some level a sense of collective shame at various acts of repression and discrimination committed in Poland's name, e.g. against the Ukrainians. Those events and policies are objective facts, my understanding of them is on one level a combination of my values and my national identity, on another a constitutive part of that identity, a reflection of a collective understanding of what being Polish 'means'. Someone with a different Polish identity will understand various objective facts in a completely different manner.

Virtually everyone in Europe and the US has some sort of national identity, and that includes those who dislike the whole category. Take DoDo for example, his feelings about Horthy or Kossuth are, I am certain, of a different nature than about Antanas Smetona or Garibaldi. On the other hand a few centuries ago most Europeans had no such identity. National identity is a relatively new phenomenon. At the same time most had some sort of estate consciousness, most don't now.

by MarekNYC on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 03:13:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 0)

Take DoDo for example, his feelings about Horthy or Kossuth are, I am certain, of a different nature than about Antanas Smetona or Garibaldi.

Well, I must admit I don't have much feelings regarding Horthy, but Kossuth is another thing, but that's probably because I am related to him. I don't know Antanas Smetona, but do Garibaldi, and until a year ago better than all 1956 revolutionaries, which says something. The single historical figure I must have read the most on is Jeanne D'Arc.

I'd say yes there is an over-representation of historical/cultural influences in me of the places I have been longer at, and that much of these influences were nationalised (e.g. a state TV, a dish provided...), but to call that a national idenity, I think is forced.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 05:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 0)

(And if called a national identity, what is its name? Y-ungar-ger-am-eu?)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 05:48:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 0)

Maybe I'm reading things into what you write, but my impression is that it is there, even if in an attenuated, rejected form. As the what it should be called - I don't know. Presumably at least as a child you felt Hungarian to some extent as the default, almost automatic way children assume things. That wouldn't necessarily been the case with Germanness as a foreigner, though it could have been (I have no way of knowing).

In my case, while I developed a strong feeling of attachment to Geneva and to French culture in the broadest sense of the word, to the extent of feeling a sense of being at home when I visited Quebec in college, I never got any Swiss or French national identity - I was always a foreigner.

by MarekNYC on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 06:09:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are the Poles really that naive? (none / 0)

I will reply in three directions.

The first 'default' I personally felt was actually something else, as I gained self-consciousness when in Yugoslavia. (One of my first surviving memories of thoughts is actually looking out of the window and thinking that 'this is my homeland'.) Later on, I did develop a feeling of Hungarianness, albeit not as default but school education and partly family, and the rejection (not of Hungarianness but the whole frame of reference) started to kick in very early (first grade, effects of thinking about some books I read). I never could 'do' collective pride and shame even to the extent you describe, though I discovered that I have more of it than realised, as Euro-booster (back when I battled freepers).

I mention that what I diary or comment on ET is not a random selection of thoughts. I do aspire to bring unique material, or to cover things not covered, be it trains or obscure history or local politics. Given the current readership of ET, within the scope of my cultural influences, that also makes me the reporter for Hungary. And thus writing stuff is usually also an educational experience for me, and funnily enough, I never learnt as much about all things 'Hungarian' than when searching for stories or researching for ones I found in the last year and half...

On a second level, my case of having lived within multiple 'nations' and thinking about categorisations as small kid rather than torture hamsters may be not common, but I view the more general 'objective' identities (say Polish-speaking intelligentsia) vs. sense of identity issue you described differently. I do think that there are multiple collective identities in most people's minds, to the extent of feeling pride and shame and having in-group/alien distinctions and codewords and solidarities, even if they are 'aware' of only a singular national identity. So I see casting things in the national framework as a deeper denial (or more generously, oversimplification) than just of differing individual senses of a nation by the same name.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 04:54:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Would Scotland's leaving the union be good for Europe? | 83 comments (83 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

City Agriculture - October 4, 2023

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - October 2023

Ireland 13 South Africa 8

UNGA: West Censors the South and East

EU VDL State of the Union -- Managing Decay

Rugby World Cup 2023 Week 1 review

Reactionary Visions and eNtiTiES

Recent Diaries

City Agriculture - October 4, 2023

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - October 2023

UA Laboratory NATO First Space War

United Nations In Stalemate Position

Biden's Headache in Middle East: Israel

EU as Client State of Joe's America

Canada's Trudeau Honoring an Ukrainian Nazi Collaborator

Ireland 13 South Africa 8

UNGA: West Censors the South and East

A Tale by Benjamin Franklin

Fail in Democracy Return to Authoritarianism

Yemen From Ceasefire to Peace Talks?

Huge Cost Proxy War of Choice

EU VDL State of the Union -- Managing Decay

Reactionary Visions and eNtiTiES

Top Military War Planning Under Joe Biden - Ukraine

Rugby World Cup 2023 Week 1 review

Joe's Fuck the EU -- Showdown

Modi G20 One Earth, One Family, One Future

Conflict In Syria's Deir Ezzor Province

Occasional Series