Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Hi,

I read your comments, and whilst I accord to you the right to your own opinions, I beg to take a different position in some respects.

First, let me say, I am not Somali,or American and I have never set foot on the Horn Of Africa.

I do believe that when one enters discussion on such a topic as you have addressed, political leanings are instantly visible. But it is not sensible if political leanings are allowed to blind us to the genuine needs of people affected. With that in mind, I ask,

How many people in Somalia and the wide world stood to benefit from the threatened take-over of Somalia by the Union of Islamic Courts, which was truly representative of only a couple of Mogadishu Clans and aligned with Iran or at least captive to Iranian philosophies? I believe 'not many'.

If such a group controlled Somalia, would their stated intention of spreading jihad accross the borders of Ehiopia and Kenya, then be extended to Somaliland, Djibouti, Sudan and Chad? I think absolutely Yes!.

Bearing in mind that Somalia is Muslim and proud of it, why did the ICU wish to subjugate it? Was it to extend the influence of radical islam across the red sea and deep into East Arica? I think yes!

Given that there are large reserves of oil in East Africa and Yemen, if a power aligned with Iran gained control of East Africa, how likely would it be that at some stage in the next decade, they would collaborate to deny the west access to sufficient quantities of oil to keep prices at bearable levels, especially as burgeoning demand exists from China, india and Korea? I believe that is an objective of Iran and some other anti westrern groups.

In a circumstance of $100+/b oil, would ordinary people of Europe Asia and North America suffer? I belive millions would starve and some millions would freeze to death.

What will bring prosperity and freedom from oppression to Somalia? Will it be development in which Somali populace have a strong share? OR, the ICU aligned to Iran and turning off the wells for their own political agendas?

What one single factor will heighten the risk of nuclear attack in the Middle East? I believe access to uranium by Iran and aligned powers: Somalia has uranium!

I apologise for the length of this, but one last observation. East Africa has been dominated by several European powers, especially including USSR in recent decades. Did any good come of it for its populations? Absolutely not!

The first oil coming out of Somalia will be owned by Somalia and its Australian and Canadian partners. The US I think is comfortable with that because it will contribute substantially to the world's puddle of oil to which all will have access and it will create peace in a nation which is geologically and geographically crucial to peace in East Africa and the Middle East.

I am not exactly "pro American intervention" per se. I am vehemently opposed to political and economic colonialism, especially in Africa and I hope the world will never again see the kind of resource theft it witnessed in several continents in the last several centuries.

Let's set the Australian/Canadian kind of model for co-operative resource development now occuring in Puntland, as a world standard.

by avalonga on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:10:43 PM EST
There is only one answer I can offer you.  In my humble opinion, neither you nor I (and by extension, neither the USA, former USSR powers, EU, Ethiopia or anyone else for that matter) ought to have any say whatsoever in what happens in Somalia except for the people of Somalia!  If they happened to prefer the Islamic Courts, then so be it.  Just like the Palestinians wanted Hamas and the Shiite population (and others!) in Lebanon prefer Hizb'allah, they are (or should be) entitled to have them as their leaders.  Whether they are acceptable to me or you or anyone else that does not belong to the particular population in question is immaterial.  ...Or do you follow the Bush doctrine that says democracy is OK as long as you vote for what I want?!?

And by the way, to what you say here:

I do believe that when one enters discussion on such a topic as you have addressed, political leanings are instantly visible. But it is not sensible if political leanings are allowed to blind us to the genuine needs of people affected. With that in mind, I ask,

My response is that you might want to heed your own advice.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The UN imposed an arms embargo on Somalia and turned its back whilst the Islamic Courts shipped in arms from all over. ICU then marched through unarmed villages and declared its "victories". They threatened Jihad in Kenya and Ethiopia and surrounded the base of the UN recognised government. They began shelling government positions but when government and Ethiopian troops retaliated they ran back to Mogadishu, closed the schools and sent children out to fight with Eritrean weapons.

I am sorry my comments offended you but it is very important that we read everything available to form our opinions; otherwise we are in danger of becoming like Nazi or Stalinist "press button" revolutionaries with  "rent a crowd" mentality.

by avalonga on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 03:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The crucial question, I believe, is do the vast majority of Somalis prefer the Islamic Courts over the so-called "legitimate government" that is backed by the UN?  Since I am not Somali, I cannot answer that question.  I have to rely on journalists' news reports, but furthermore, I need to separate the propaganda that serves non-Somali interests from the real news reports that truly are reflective of what the Somali people want.  Not an easy task (neither for me nor for you).  I tend to lend credence to reports from people like Nir Rosen:

ROBERTS: Nir Rosen, what about that? I mean Somalia is the poster child for the words "failed state." Is there any way it's ever going to be stable?

ROSEN: It was getting stable. The Islamic courts were not radical. It actually succeeded in doing something amazing for Somalis, bringing peace to Mogadishu, getting rid of the warlords, letting people be able to walk in the streets at night without getting robbed or killed and they brought stability not only to Mogadishu, but it was spreading throughout much of the country. What we have done by focusing solely on this terrorism or radical Islam aspect for our foreign policy for an entire country is actually to destabilize the country, introduce foreign troops who invaded the country who are extremely unpopular. I think this is actually a horrible situation. The Islamic courts were the answer for Somalia. They managed to unite many different clans. They managed to provide stability. They had the backing of Somalis very important business community. They had the backing of many of the original powers and we've actually destabilized Somalia by allowing the Ethiopians to do this.

ROBERTS: So you think it was better off, before the Ethiopians backing up the warlords went back in there.

ROSEN: Well I was in Mogadishu when the Islamic courts took over and there were massive celebrations throughout the entire city, because neighborhoods had been closed off. Suddenly you can go throughout the entire city. Somalis were very, very happy. There were parades. There were festivals. Businessmen who had been exiled for many years came back. There was really a sense of optimism. The one fear people had is that the Ethiopians are going to come in with backing from America and ruin all of this and bring the warlords back and bring a government in name only. It's not really government, back into Somalia and this is indeed what happens happened. Now Somalia's destabilized where there was a little bit of hope a few months ago.

There are similar reports from other respected sources.  You obviously disagree, but then you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 02:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many people in Somalia and the wide world stood to benefit from the threatened take-over of Somalia by the Union of Islamic Courts, which was truly representative of only a couple of Mogadishu Clans and aligned with Iran or at least captive to Iranian philosophies? I believe 'not many'.

In southern Somalia, I believe the answer is "many", thus there popular support. They replaced civil war with rule of law, and that is generally - almost no matter what law - perceived as beneficial. Now instead they have an ethiopian puppet regime that is not strong enough to ensure order.

If such a group controlled Somalia, would their stated intention of spreading jihad accross the borders of Ehiopia and Kenya, then be extended to Somaliland, Djibouti, Sudan and Chad? I think absolutely Yes!.

Sudan? Chad? No way, they were not even close to such powers. They would probably have battled Puntland at some stage and if they defeated Puntland maybe also Somaliland. I would however more guess that fighting with Puntland would have ended in stalemate. To see a strong faction in a civil war in a very poor country as being able to overrun their larger, richer neighbours is not very realistic. Conquering their neighbours neighbours? That is beyond unrealistic.

Bearing in mind that Somalia is Muslim and proud of it, why did the ICU wish to subjugate it? Was it to extend the influence of radical islam across the red sea and deep into East Arica? I think yes!

They wished to gain power and end the civil war by winning it. That can of course be seen as subjugating, but then the question arises why Lincoln wanted to subjugate USA?

Given that there are large reserves of oil in East Africa and Yemen, if a power aligned with Iran gained control of East Africa, how likely would it be that at some stage in the next decade, they would collaborate to deny the west access to sufficient quantities of oil to keep prices at bearable levels, especially as burgeoning demand exists from China, india and Korea? I believe that is an objective of Iran and some other anti westrern groups.

Aligned with Iran? Why would they, considering Iran is Shia and Somalia is Sunni?

In a circumstance of $100+/b oil, would ordinary people of Europe Asia and North America suffer? I belive millions would starve and some millions would freeze to death.

Well, then we better find some other ways to organise our socities then depend on oil, which after all is a limited resource. $100+/b oil is probably coming no matter what happens in Somalia.

What will bring prosperity and freedom from oppression to Somalia? Will it be development in which Somali populace have a strong share? OR, the ICU aligned to Iran and turning off the wells for their own political agendas?

Prosperity and freedom from oppression is very unlikely to follow from Ethiopian occupation either.

What one single factor will heighten the risk of nuclear attack in the Middle East? I believe access to uranium by Iran and aligned powers: Somalia has uranium!

Iran already has uranium. Can someone chim in and inform where it is mined?

I apologise for the length of this, but one last observation. East Africa has been dominated by several European powers, especially including USSR in recent decades. Did any good come of it for its populations? Absolutely not!

In fact, it has recently been used as a chess-board in the struggles between the US and USSR. And quite correctly it did not do them any good, much the other way around actually.

The first oil coming out of Somalia will be owned by Somalia and its Australian and Canadian partners. The US I think is comfortable with that because it will contribute substantially to the world's puddle of oil to which all will have access and it will create peace in a nation which is geologically and geographically crucial to peace in East Africa and the Middle East.

I think on the contrary that the local part will be owned by high Puntland officials. During civil war (which is likely to continue under new management) corruption is usually staggering.

I am not exactly "pro American intervention" per se. I am vehemently opposed to political and economic colonialism, especially in Africa and I hope the world will never again see the kind of resource theft it witnessed in several continents in the last several centuries.

But is not Ethiopia taking over in Somalia also a form of colonialism?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 at 10:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These rants are entirely predictable.
by avalonga on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 03:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Aligned with Iran? Why would they, considering Iran is Shia and Somalia is Sunni?"

But that's the whole point. Somalia is  Sunni but the ICU policies resembled Taliban.

Anyway, please read it all again. You will find that I am not an American apologist: I am an historian and I place little importance on "pro-US", "anti-US" dogmas. These things distort our thinking.

by avalonga on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 04:16:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Taliban means also sunni and allied with our friendly despots Pakistan and Saudi. Iran and the taliban hated each other's guts.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 04:22:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I could say the same about your original comment, was it not for the fact that some parts was a bit unpredictable. But to head down that track would not lead us in any productive direction.

So I admit my reponse was snarkish at times. If you ignore the snarkish formulations, there is also a point-by-point rebuttal of your central points. If you like to, we can discuss the situation in Somalia instead of whose rantings are most predicable.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jan 20th, 2007 at 08:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series