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I am sorry, but despite good writing and good research this seems to me just another strawman argument -- the case that coal is a dastardly and stupid source of energy foesn't need to be made, it's pretty self-evident.  The case that is just blankly asserted without any substantiation, is that nuclear power is "the only way for humanity to survive."  I find this, in the absence of actual energy budgets and projections, to be merely a statement of dogma or faith.  Since nuclear power comes with both social and environmental costs that make it "second most costly to coal", it seems to me far from an obvious choice, and repeatedly proving that it is "better than coal" is kind of like proving that death by lung cancer is better than death by bone cancer;  any reasonable person would still try to find the menu option labelled "Neither"  :-)

Increasingly I suspect that "the only way for humanity to survive" is a coded formula for "the only way for western elites to continue living in unparalleled luxury, for industrial and financial rentiers to continue reaping record profits, and for governments to continue maintaining centralised control over energy and hence over their populations."  I am not sure that the continuation of any of these things is desirable, let alone necessary for human survival.  Efficiency measures and demand reduction never seem to enter the picture in these repeated "nuclear vs coal" analytical exercises.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Jan 8th, 2007 at 08:53:06 PM EST
Maybe you are of the opinion that efficiency improvements and reduced demand are working somewhere on the planet?

When exactly do you propose for these magical events to occur?

Where do you expect them to occur?   Let me guess...

...in Germany.

It does not happen that nuclear energy is in a position right now to cover all of the demand for energy by either first world or third world countries.   However there is nothing else that is even close.

You may think that I am speaking in code words for rich people living in luxury, but I am not doing so at all.   On the other hand, I am not asking the citizens of Chad or Cameroon to "conserve" their way out of this matter.   They live on less continuous power than you and I are using to light our monitors.

Later I will post a diary entry here about Cameroon and its energy profile, which is connected with the destruction of some of the most important forests on earth.   When I am speaking in pro-nuclear terms, it is exactly these people I am speaking about and not the Greenpeace Coffee Klatch in Hamburg.

If you add the words "affordable for all citizens of the planet" the pro-nuclear case becomes far more obvious, and frankly it's irrefutable already.

Happily Nigeria and Vietnam are two third world nations that have announced the intention to build nuclear power.   Right now two nations with vast underclasses, China and India - where people have not been living the high life until very recently - account for most of the nuclear construction in the world.

It seems like the first world has a big problem with other people trying to live like they do.  Platitudes about efficiency and conservation - and everyone likes both efficiency and conservation - are hardly realistic under the circumstances.

The Chinese, the Indians, the Cameroonians, the Nigerians, the Chadeans are all real people and they matter just as much as you and I do.

The real environmental crisis is Malthusian.   We may choose to exterminate the mass of humanity through the agency of wholesale catastrophe or through the use of reasonably safe options like the increased use of nuclear power.

by NNadir on Mon Jan 8th, 2007 at 09:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
putting "happily" and "Nigeria (has) announced the intention to build nuclear power" in the same sentence gives me a stomach ache.  They can't keep a refinery running safely, how in hell are they going to keep a nuke up and running without Chernobyl 2?

Can you justify Nukes in the face of wind mill costs?  

by HiD on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nuclear can be made safe, but it can also be made very unsafe.

Safe, well regulated nuclear should be promoted, not just nuclear. Safe, well regulated nuclear seems difficult in a number of places, like Nigeria.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't fear nukes.  I do fear nukes run by Homer Simpson or religious fruitcakes.
by HiD on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 07:32:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Chinese, the Indians, the Cameroonians, the Nigerians, the Chadeans are all real people and they matter just as much as you and I do.

Bophal, broken dams, unprotected workers dismantling ships with high-grade industrial waste, coal mine accidents. Your faith in Finnish-level safety in such environments seems to be GE Coffee Klatch in Atlanta.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It does not happen that nuclear energy is in a position right now to cover all of the demand for energy by either first world or third world countries.

That quite phantastic projection (even less likely than broad reduction of consumption, yet commonly repeated in nuke-boosterist cafee klatch) relies on illusory levels of investment and the use of reserves to such a low grade that the environmental destruction from uranium mining would outstrip that from coal. (I once made a calculation on that.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would like to see that calculation.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:55:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I couldn't wait so dug up some numbers from various sources in advance. For coal:

  • A 'typical' hard coal powerplant: 8.5 TWh electricity from 2.5 million tons, that's about 0.3 kg mined for 1 kWh.

  • The most recent German brown coal (lignite) powerplant: 1.3 TWh electricity from 1 million tons, that's 0.77 kg mined for 1 kWh.

For nuclear: calculating with 0.85% U in U3O8, and a ratio of feedstock and enriched uranium of 8.5,

  • With the 'current average' ore grade of 0.15%, a current modern plant extracting energy for 45,000 kWh electricity from 1 kg, we get 0.15 kg mined material for 1 kWh.

  • With the 'current average' ore grade of 0.15%, and an EPR expectation of 60,000 kWh electricity from 1 kg, we get 0.11 kg mined material for 1 kWh.

  • With current peak grade of 0.05% and the EPR, we get 0.33 kg mined for 1 kWh.

  • With a cutoff grade of 0.02% and the EPR, we get 0.83 kg mined for 1 kWh.

  • With a 0.0004% grade granite and the EPR, we get 41.7 kg mined for 1 kWh.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 09:21:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are the grades of ore included in the coal calculation?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 09:26:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brown and hard coal. That's a grade difference.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 09:28:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regrettably I can't find my file, but I think I can reproduce parts of it as addition to the above. I remember looking at actual mining figures, so I did again.

For 2004, I find total global coal production was 5.524 billion tons, of which three-quarters, around 4.1 billion tons went for the production of 39.8% of a global electricity generation of just under 15,000 TWh, that is around 6,000 TWh. This gives an average of 0.68 kilograms of coal for 1 kWh. The figure is closer to the German brown coal power plant's figure I gave not because of the dominance of low-grade borwn coal (it is less than a fourth) but that of old inefficient plants. If we expect increasing efficiency for nuclear (EPR and all), we can also safely predict increased efficiency for coal, say to 0.55 kg giving 0 kWh.

For Uranium grades, current production (which is insufficient for current needs once material from decommissioned weapons runs out 5-7 years from now) seems to go rarely below 0.1%. (The current maximum is a staggering 18% at a Canadian mine, the minimum 0.035% at a Namibian mine.) But IAEA considers recoverable proven reserves those below $135/kgU, while most production is below $50/kgU. For a greatly broadened share of nuclear, these (and probably even more expensive) reserves have to be tapped. Unfortunately, in my current search I haven't found numbers on the grade of proven reserves close to $135/kgU, only found single examples that trend to above 0.01%.

At any rate, the figures for mined tonnage for coal and greatly increased non-breeder, non-thorium nuclear are in the same range.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 05:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, one more figure: 2005 global average yield in nuclear plants was around 38,500 kWh from 1 kg of lightly enriched uranium.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 05:46:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]


The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Mon Jan 8th, 2007 at 11:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is our refusal to even consider using less energy.

I've said repeatedly that we should, in order of priority do:

  1. energy savings and conservation
  2. renewables
  3. nuclear
  4. hydrocarbon burning to the least extent possible.

All our governments are doing the exact opposite right now, and utilities are busy BUILDING coal-fired plants all over the place with hardly a peep. In that context, the argument that nuclear is a much better alternative to coal is actually quite relevant and urgent.

It's not the best solution, but it's a massive progress nevertheless.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 06:33:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a real question, not rhetorical in any way.

There are right now farmers in France experimenting with burning plain unrefined sunflower oil to run their tractors. Search on 'HVP' or 'HVB' and 'tracteur', plenty of links.

A (very) rough approximation is that it takes about 1/20th of the farm surface to produce enough oil to cover the liquid fuel needs of the farm. But of course other energy 'intrants' are needed, such as nitrates, etc.

Is there anywhere a calculation showing how much energy overall is needed to produce a ton of wheat/whatever, everything considered ?

May I say sunflower oil is a 'renewable' if I don't know the net energy balance for its cultivation ?

by balbuz on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 08:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a problem we face is that a lot of our processes -- in agriculture particularly, but transport and other sectors also -- were developed and encouraged specifically to promote the consumption and sale of fossil-intensive stuff, in other words to absorb overproductivity.  wastefulness customarily means profit -- either for the person selling the commodity being wasted, who sees higher sales volume, or for the person doing something in a wasteful and slipshod way in order to cut labour costs or time-to-market.

this process is documented for air travel in the book Harry S Truman and the War Scare of 1948 -- heartily disliked by Truman hagiographers -- in which much epistolatory and other documentary evidence strongly suggests the unwillingness of the aircraft industry to scale back after its mega-lucrative WWII years and the consequent creation of mass-market passenger air travel (as well as the great Soviet Fear Campaign that launched the McCarthy ear).  similar critiques have been made of the so-called Green Revolution period as one in which the affluent N Hemi made a concerted assault on traditional agricultural methods and heirloom cultivars worldwide in order to create markets for a glut of chemicals, tractors, patented seeds and the like.  Manning and others have documented the ways in which the glut of fossil-intensive maize produced in the US exercised a warping effect on the market in sweeteners and cattle feed, even pressuring the FDA to alter the definition of "grade A" beef (Pollan and others) to conform to the  fat-saturated beef from cornfed cattle... and so on.  production driving demand creation, market theory standing on its head and kicking its feet in the air.

in other words, a lot of what we now take for granted as cultural and consumption patterns are the result of market-creation specifically to absorb overproduction, overproduction goosed by massive fossil inputs.  in just a few short decades we have gone from "having so much oil they had to invent ways to get folks to buy more of it" to "ooops, it's starting to run out."

this seems like good news and bad news.  the good news is that a lot of these patterns aren't really necessary:  fertiliser is way overused and could be replace by more intelligent soil cultivation, pesticides are far less effective and more self-defeating than they were sold to be and traditional/modern IPN techniques often work better;  less tractoring is required on most farms than the vendors of tractors and fuel have been telling everyone for decades.  many consumption patterns that were engineered to absorb a crisis of overproduction, could easily (in a physics sense) be reduced/retooled without enormous changes in effectiveness and in many cases with positive results for efficiency, health, etc.  the real issue is as J describes above, cultural:  many of these behaviours and patterns have now become acculturated to the point where people will endorse violence up to and including war and occupation rather than relinquish them.

unfortunately war and occupation are themselves enormous sinkholes of energy and raw materials, so the diminishing returns effect we see in exploiting lower grade ores or oil fields also applies to the theft of higher grade resources at gunpoint...  at some point it costs more to steal the goods than the goods are worth.

the diminishing returns on lower grade ore, and the yield per kg mined, referenced above, to me have serious carbon-neutrality implications.  this kind of mining is done with fossil-fueled heavy equipment -- much of it exempt from air quality regs.  as the yield reduces towards the lower figures in the list, the carbon emissions from the mining and refining process presumably scale up linearly.  as well as "KWH yield per kg mined" and the associated environmental devastation caused by getting at those ever-multiplying kg of ore, I'd sure like to know about gallons of fuel burned and ghg emissions per tonne of ore extracted, transported, and refined.  without all these numbers in hand it is hard even to say whether nuke power is a break-even proposition in carbon emissions.


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 at 09:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry about the typos -- typing in haste.  obviously that was 'McCarthy era' and 'IPM' -- apologies.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 01:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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