Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
apology, should have used a less technical term.

perhaps "indiscriminate bombing" or "the wide and thorough distribution of antipersonnel bomblets".

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 at 09:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, even so, I would recommend the work of Human Rights Watch re bombing and collateral damage.

They document quite thoroughly the impact of US (and allied/coalition) bombing efforts at least from Desert Storm through Afghanistan.  

Bomblets are a very serious issue, but what is "thorough"?  

What is "indiscriminate"?

We are likely to speak past each other on this.

The US/Coalition operation in Afghanistan could (should) have been handled much better, especially in terms of taking a long-term approach that truly put creating a better foundation for a healthy society as core. (To me, the US/western world could have won significantly by seeking to make Afghanistan a 'model' of what a prosperous Islamic society, not based on oil (or opium), could be through a collaborative effort that sought to foster a stronger society. Obviously, far from what was purusued.)  Even with all its failures (and they are many, and many faceted), I find "indiscriminate", "widespread", stating that it is worse than what happened under the Soviets, etc to be wrong-headed.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!

by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To me, the US/western world could have won significantly by seeking to make Afghanistan a 'model' of what a prosperous Islamic society, not based on oil (or opium), could be through a collaborative effort that sought to foster a stronger society.

This really is a great joke...like it ever was an intention of USA (or any occupier for that matter). Great joke!

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Occupiers are generally unlikely to send their armies (hey why did they build up armies now again? because they want peace and stability?) to occupy another country in order for it to prosper. On the other hand history teaches us that almost all occupiers will preach that occupation is done in the best interest of the occupied.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:49:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While the purpose certainly was not to ensure "prosperity", where do you rate the Western occupations of Japan and Germany in your scale?

And, well, what I was suggesting was that Afghanistan be viewed not as "occupation" and, well, if you wish, as part of a campaign to foster a stronger pluralist international society for the decades ahead.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!

by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 08:30:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am more familiar with the occupation of Germany, and I found this wikipedia article so I do not have to write it all myself (yey, Tribext):

History of Germany since 1945 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Industrial Disarmament in Western Germany

The initial proposal for the post-surrender policy of the Western powers, the so-called Morgenthau Plan proposed by Henry Morgenthau, Jr., was one of "pastoralization".[2] The Morgenthau Plan, though subsequently ostensibly shelved due to public opposition, influenced occupation policy; most notably through the U.S. punitive occupation directive JCS 1067[3][4] and The industrial plans for Germany[5][5] [6].

History of Germany since 1945 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The first plan was subsequently followed by a number of new ones, the last signed in 1949. By 1950, after the virtual completion of the by the then much watered-out plans, equipment had been removed from 706 manufacturing plants in the west and steel production capacity had been reduced by 6,700,000 tons.[12]

Timber exports from the U.S. occupation zone were particularly heavy. Sources in the U.S. government stated that the purpose of this was the "ultimate destruction of the war potential of German forests."[13] As a consequence of the practiced clear-felling extensive deforestation resulted which could "be replaced only by long forestry development over perhaps a century."[13]

With the beginning of the Cold war, the U.S. policy gradually changed as it became evident that a return to operation of West German industry was needed not only for the restoration of the whole European economy, but also for the rearmament of West Germany as an ally against the Soviet Union. They feared that the poverty and hunger would drive the West Germans to Communism. General Lucius Clay stated "There is no choice between being a communist on 1,500 calories a day and a believer in democracy on a thousand".

Started as your normal pillaging occupation intended on making Western Germany a dependent client state, the need for a bulwark against communism eventually became greater, so instead it was rebuilt. If you will, communism saved Western Germany.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 11:53:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(To me, the US/western world could have won significantly by seeking to make Afghanistan a 'model' of what a prosperous Islamic society, not based on oil (or opium), could be through a collaborative effort that sought to foster a stronger society. Obviously, far from what was pursued

Bravo Adam.

And to bring the Diary back to Iran from its next door neighbour, it is exactly in this direction I have been trying to help them go, through implementing new financial infrastructure - eg the, now mythical,"Iran Oil Bourse" concept - based precisely upon the collaborative approach to which you refer.

It's been slow going, but I think current circumstances - ie the ongoing collapse of the US deficit-based system, and the global dollar hegemony - might allow the introduction of new alternatives solidly based upon the ethical values that underpin all the great religions, but which Islam alone continues to prescribe (albeit a prescription often ignored or perverted in practice).

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 at 09:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series