Cynicism unconcealed | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Cynicism unconcealed (4.00 / 2)

Even if it were so much money (it isn't), it would not be a valid justification.
Yes, the blokes in the factories may like it.

But let's suppose I had children (fingers crossed ;-) ), they may think it means a lot to them that dad has started selling drugs and now they get a lot of toys and fancy holidays. Do you think the judge will say "oh, that's alright then"?

I am ready to enter into a discussion on whether it is acceptable or not to invite him, and will admit that there are arguments in favour of it, however repugnant it may be. But to dismiss the objections on the grounds that Lybia buys stuff is a non starter.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 04:18:06 PM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 1)

Your argument has four weaknesses (says the guy from the no.1 per capita arms exporting nation...).

First, if you don't sell, someone else will. (We always say, "if we don't sell, the French and Russians will")

Secondly, there is a fundamental difference between selling drugs and arms. Drugs are criminal to sell. Arms deals are by definition a matter of international relations, and as the international system is anarchic, arm sales cannot, by definition, be illegal. Except if the arms are sold to a nation under a weapons embargo which is supported by all great powers.

Third, every nation has a right to buy arms for self defence. The alternative is that every nation has a reasonably big and diversified domestic arms industry.

Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber? If the French were selling machetes, tear gas or torture manuals, there might be reasons for worry and complaint.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 04:28:27 PM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (4.00 / 4)

I didn't say that selling drugs was akin to selling weapons. Nor are the complaints mostly due to the fact that France is selling weapons.

I just used an example to refute the "just shut up and mind your own business because the people in the factories will be getting some work" argument.

That Lybia may be bringing money to France is not an argument to decide whether or not Gadhafi's presence is acceptable on Human Rights grounds. That was my point.

As for your arguments, 2 to 4 are fully valid. 1 is not. Similarly, if I don't sell drugs, someone will. But I don't, even though someone will.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 05:17:20 PM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (4.00 / 4)

Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber? If the French were selling machetes, tear gas or torture manuals, there might be reasons for worry and complaint.

What makes you think we don't ?

What do you think the hundreds of French soldiers who had participated in the Algerian war were "teaching" to the various new armies in Africa for a few decades ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 11:35:37 PM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (4.00 / 5)

Starvid:

Secondly, there is a fundamental difference between selling drugs and arms. Drugs are criminal to sell.

Damn right there is a fundamental difference between arms and drugs! Arms are made to kill people. Drugs make you high, and provide a certain amount of fun and entertainment. The fact that the former is legal and the latter illegal speaks more to the failures of this world than give a basis for judgment of persons and actions. For me, it is quite clear which of the two goods is morally repugnant.

As they said in the good old days: drop acid, not bombs!

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 02:02:34 AM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (4.00 / 4)

Yes, thank you. There is no way selling weapons is more ethical or moral than selling pot (unsubstantiated accusations of "narcoterrorism" aside). Not that I personally utilise either.

As for this:

Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber?

Being alive isn't a human right?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 02:58:20 AM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 0)

Defending yourself is the most fundamental right there is.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 06:43:52 PM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 1)

Starvid:

Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber? If the French were selling machetes, tear gas or torture manuals, there might be reasons for worry and complaint.

Will this do as an example?

Chapter : Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem

Falsehood #4: Israeli Intelligence is able to pin-point so-called "terrorist bases" as targets for air strikes.
The truth: The communiques of the Israeli Air Force itself mostly claim that air strikes were against merely "suspected" terrorist sites. This is as absurd as bombing a town or village because someone who may have committed an act of violence might be living somewhere in the town or village.
Falsehood # 5: Israeli air strikes are only "retaliatory" actions because of terrorist acts.
The truth: Most Israeli air strikes have been unrelated to armed action by Palestinians, but have been designed solely to "make life unbearable" for the Palestinian civilian population. In cases where air strikes followed an armed Palestinian action, the Israeli Air Force's targets were civilian population centers with no relationship to the men involved in the action for which the "retaliation" allegedly took place.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 06:00:40 PM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 0)

And how is that relevant for France selling Rafales to Libya? You still can't oppress people with fighter bombers. They are war machines. Israel is fighting a low intensity war against the palestinians.

Now, let's say the Israelis wanted to buy Rafales. Should France deny it? Nope. If they don't the Israelis will buy American instead (which they do anyway, but still).

Results are the only thing that matter. Of course, France could turn not selling Rafales to Israel into a big political issue, shaming Israel. Then it would be a relevant thing to do.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 03:24:31 AM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 0)

Are you seriously trying to claim that a weapon you can threaten to kill people with cannot be a tool of opression?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 06:06:55 AM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 0)

If you want to opress people you don't do it with a Rafale. You use those for killing people in sophisticated ways.

If you want opression, sticks and guns are far more efficient.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 12:45:06 PM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 0)

What's that called in your planet?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:13:38 AM EST
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Re: Cynicism unconcealed (none / 0)

War.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 07:15:23 PM EST
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