US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replacement. | 31 comments (31 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replaceme (4.00 / 2)

Google tells me that 1g of Gallium costs $3 at current low-demand prices.

There are 454g in a pound, so one pound of Gallium costs $1362.

I don't know what the ratio of Al/Ga would be in this magic alloy, but assuming it's 10:1 in favour of Al - somewhat conservative - you're looking at a tank that costs $47,670 to make if there are 350 pounds of Al.

If it's 1:1 it's more like half a million.

Even at 100:1 you still have a tank that costs nearly $5,000.

This would make cars very, very valuable commodities - possibly even more so than they are now.

The press release doesn't specify the amount of gallium needed.

Maybe someone should call them and ask?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri May 18th, 2007 at 03:52:41 PM EST

Re: US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replaceme (none / 0)

USGS quotes a significantly lower price for gallium.

Now that is a 2005 price, but still this is significantly lower. I think that purity matters here. Not cheap, but since it's able to be recycled, as a capital cost $1000 or $2000 isn't a huge price tage.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri May 18th, 2007 at 04:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replaceme (4.00 / 2)

There's another problem, which is how increased demand might change the price. If a material is produced from an ore, it may be easy to ramp up production. Gallium, though, is mostly produced as a by-product of aluminium production. Unless other sources are developed (the flue-ash mentioned in the article?), the production of gallium will be limited to being a small fraction of the production of aluminium -- aluminium ore contains about 50 parts per million. On the other hand, it may be that most of this potential by-product isn't extracted at present, which would leave more room for growth in production.

Total annual world production a few years ago was estimated to be 61 tons, so growth would presumably have to be huge, in percentage terms.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri May 18th, 2007 at 05:14:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replaceme (none / 0)

This pdf says 34% of gallium use goes to semiconductors. I don't know where the rest goes but that isn't exactly massive demand.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 01:03:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replaceme (4.00 / 2)

Oh, great. Biofuels lead to peak corn and this new oil replacement to peak electronics.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 03:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replaceme (none / 1)

That level of purity is destined for semiconductor use, and all those 9's you see are the main component of the price. The press release indicates that "low grade ore" is all that is needed, leading me think that its natural occurrence in Aluminum ore is fairly close to the concentration needed for this process. Solar cells are in a similar boat as I talked about some months ago - semiconductor quality silicon (of the grade that goes to make your CPU) is overkill for solar cells.

This is the first new tech that I have had good vibes about since I started studying peak oil. Breaking down water with a common earth element? Gimmie.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 01:17:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Plus, it makes sense (none / 1)

Aluminum is one of the most electricity-consuming manufacturing processes around, so it stands to reason that there is a lot of energy 'embedded' in aluminum.

It does sound promising - noting of course, that it only moves the problem to electricity generation, where there are a lot of options, but where those currently used are also problematic (coal, gas, nuclear, etc...)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 10:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plus, it makes sense (4.00 / 3)

I'm sorry, but this seems ridiculous. Aluminum is obtained from naturally ocurring Aluminum oxides. We are told upthread that Gallium is "mostly obtained as a byproduct of aluminum production_. In other words:

you mine ores rich in Aluminum oxide
you extract metallic Aluminum from it (and Gallium as a by-product) by means of an energy-intensive process
you then recombine the Aluminum and Gallium to obtain Aluminum oxide and Hydrogen

There is no free lunch here, might as well use the electricity spent producing the Aluminum for ordinary electrolysis of water.

By the way, the reason Gallium is an impurity in Aluminum oxides is that Aluminum and Gallium are chemically similar [both contiguous elements in the the Earth Metal (s2p1) series, Al is 1s2 2s2p6 3s2p1 and Gallium is 1s2 2s2p6 3s2p6 4s2d10p1].

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 11:06:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hydrogen has always been a battery, ... (4.00 / 3)

... not an energy source, so what they are describing in reducing transport and storage problems is a better battery.

And better batteries are the ongoing holy grail for EV's.

Now, using hydrogen as a benchmark is, of course, making it sound much better than it may be, since as a battery, hydrogen sucks really bad. Being much better than hydrogen is something we have already accomplished, so the question becomes compared to other batteries, how effective is this.

It would seem that what it really has going for it is stability ... one presumes that it is not going to discharge on its own even if not tapped for hydrogen for weeks at a time. So I would think that the most likely use for this is for the back up power supply component in PHEV's, which is presently provided by gasoline/diesel.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 11:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hydrogen has always been a battery, ... (4.00 / 2)

It makes a whole lot more sense, energetically and in terms of takign advantage of existing infrastructure, to use electric power to produce synthetic hydrocarbons.

The only advantage of this over pure hydrogen is that storing Aluminum and Gallium in a "just add water!" hydrogen fuel cell is easier than handling pure hydrogen. But the result of this is to produce Aluminum oxide from recycled aluminum, so the spent fuel cells would have to be recycled into Aluminum-production again. Also, I am not convinced the Gallium will catalyse as oppose to being consumed and ending up as impurities in the Aluminum Oxide.

This scheme will result in making Aluminum, Gallium and electric power more expensive, and no reuse of existing liquid fuel infrastructure.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 12:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hydrogen has always been a battery, ... (none / 1)

The thing is, if there is a carbon slurry (or other carbon source) going into a direct carbon fuel cell, that is likely to be more power per kg of fuel than water plus aluminum/gallium pellets.

And carbon powder can be created from biomass through direct charcoal conversion, giving very good transportability and stability.

But altogether I'd rather bike to the closest electric train and let the train operator worry about dragging the motors and brakes and all of that around. That way I don't have to park anything in front of the house.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 12:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Plus, it makes sense (none / 1)

A version of this comment crossposted on DKos.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 11:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It would appear that the Gallium ... (none / 1)

... is playing the role of a catalyst rather than consumed in the process (at least from the write up), so if its 10:1 per tankful, then over 100 tankfuls its 1,000:1, and over 1,000 tankfuls 10,000:1.

And if the impurities in Gallium that mess up the formation of micron scale electronics are not a problem for the process, then 99% pure Gallium would be a lot cheaper $3/gram.

On the other hand, its really a fueled-battery, and the real comparison would be with charged-batteries and other fueled-batteries ... its cheating a bit to compare it with hydrogen, which under present technology really sucks as a power storage approach.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 19th, 2007 at 12:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

US Researchers Announce Possible Oil Replacement. | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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