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But the productiveness of Labour pales into insignificance compared to the productiveness of Capital (defined as Property) and NEITHER is independently "productive".)

Under technologized conditions, the power of dead labor (i.e labor-saving technology) appears to dwarf that of living labor (i.e. the individuals operating that technology).  What one doesn't see, in a cursory observation of the modern factory, is the labor that went into creating the labor-saving technology.  Marx counts that, too, in his reckoning of the productivity of labor.

Sure, nature is "productive," too, but not in the sense that it is someone's "property."  Property, as Locke asserted two-and-a-half centuries ago, is a person's legal relationship to a thing.  Now, the Nature Conservancy might own a chunk of "property" for the sake of keeping it out of production altogether, and thus said "nature" would not be productive altogether.

I don't see why it's necessary to take the terms of the Labor Theory of Value, mix them around a bit, change their definitions here and there, and re-present it as a whole new defense of socialism.

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:07:30 AM EST
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I don't see why it's necessary to take the terms of the Labor Theory of Value, mix them around a bit, change their definitions here and there, and re-present it as a whole new defense of socialism.

Are you claiming the word "productivity" in exclusivity for the Labour Theory of Value?

What is the "whole new defence of socialism"?

Who said anything of the sort was "necessary"?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:12:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What one doesn't see, in a cursory observation of the modern factory, is the labor that went into creating the labor-saving technology.  Marx counts that, too, in his reckoning of the productivity of labor.

What happens when the amount of labour saved by technology dwarfs the amount of labour that went into creating the technology? Does that mean that all the saved labour needs to be paid in advance when "buying" the technology, or does it need to be paid as "rent"?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does that mean that all the saved labour needs to be paid in advance when "buying" the technology

The point of the labor theory of value is not to try to recalculate everyone's wages so as to make them "fair" in some ideal society where labor is paid its "fair value" by some capitalist who is going broke for the hell of it.  Rather, it is regarded as a given that exchanges aren't "fair," that under capitalism labor isn't paid its "fair value" because the exploitation of labor drives the whole system, and that the best way to ameliorate this state of affairs is to not have capitalism, or capitalists.  The alternative proposed by ecosocialists is a union of free producers, in which the collective project of humanity is re-oriented to the goals of ecological integrity, or what Enrique Leff calls "ecological production."

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:45:55 AM EST
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The alternative proposed by ecosocialists is a union of free producers, in which the collective project of humanity is re-oriented to the goals of ecological integrity

Does the "union of free producers" involve forced collectivisation? And how does the reorientation of the collective project take place, and who then decides how well the "free producers" are following the goal of ecological integrity?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And how does the reorientation of the collective project take place

Not for me to decide.

Generally speaking, ideas of "socialism" do not consist of utopian templates to be imposed willy-nilly upon the world without its permission.  Socialism isn't a George W. Bush game of "I'd rather be dictator."  This, besides the critique of capitalism given in "Capital," is the revolution in socialist thinking that was promoted by Marx and Engels.  Leaders such as Stalin and Mao chose a different path because the conditions they faced were impossibly inappropriate to the propaganda they used to promote their regimes.

who then decides how well the "free producers" are following the goal of ecological integrity?

Ecosocialism presumes general social approval of the goal of avoiding ecological collapse.  Modern capitalist society, on the other hand, heedlessly transforms the world into parking lots, lawns, buildings, and monoculture farms while waiting for ecological collapse to educate it toward a better way -- or more likely to kill it outright.

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 02:19:59 PM EST
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And how does the reorientation of the collective project take place

Not for me to decide.

But that is crucially important: how to get there from here.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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