Another Urban Legend Bites the Dust | 55 comments (55 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Another Urban Legend Bites the Dust (4.00 / 11)

Wait, are you implying that growing rice in Australia maybe isn't the best idea humankind has ever come up with? [one of my all time favorites, personally - when a friend of mine from AU mentioned that this actually goes on I didn't believe him until I researched it a bit for myself.]

I've given this some thought lately, mostly through the lens of agriculture. In a world where energy has been nearly free for the past 100 years, the societies that have dominated in such a climate (ha) are the ones that have best managed the next largest bottleneck - mindpower (mental labor, not physical labor - whatever Migeru or Chris Cook refer to it as in economic terms). One aspect of managing this problem is (keep in mind I'm speaking of this in terms of world domination), of course, moving everyone from manual labor into office jobs while the machines do the physical work in order to take advantage of their mental capacity that wasn't (necessarily) being utilized. Another method, though, the one that really dominates how we live today, is copying or imitation - 10,000 of the same store with the exact same products inside, millions of acres of corn on many different types of land. Mass production. McDonalization. It's all part of the same process born out of the same environment. A small number of people directing the actions of many, many machines through the use of replication technologies.

In such a world the inefficiencies aren't - they're swept under the rug by the lubrication of the fantastic energy subsidy we've been riding for the past century, and thus almost everyone is completely blind to them. When the bottleneck moves back to energy, success will come through the opposite approach that you describe here - efficient energy use through the use (and cost) of more brainpower per acre as ALL farms will require local knowledge of the land rather than a few guys in an office building in Des Moines ordering 100,000kg of fertilizer and pesticides to be used on their company's million acres of land.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat Jul 14th, 2007 at 08:34:17 PM EST

Re: Another Urban Legend Bites the Dust (4.00 / 5)

I think mass production and Mc Donaldisation is the only way things can be directed by a small group of people at the top of a hierarchy - after all, there's only so much a small group of people can wrap their collective heads around.

If you're forced to eke out a competitive advantage through local knowledge, you must have a much flatter decision structure and the size of your operation is limited. Unless, of course, you're a banker and you own people's ability to get things done in the first place - for in our economy, without credit there is no activity.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 03:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you saying (4.00 / 3)

that bankers will dominate the decentralised world even more than they dominate today's world?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 04:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you saying (4.00 / 3)

I'm saying that they have the potential to.

Where is the capital to start a small local unit going to come from? Either you are a wholly-owned subsidiary of a larger corporation, or you need to get credit from a bank.

Or we can change the system.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 04:17:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, I don't think so (4.00 / 2)

Retail banking may be a profitable activity, but it's not profitable for the bankers involved. The only way bankers become "masters of the universe" is when banks get fees on multibillion euro deals and the investment bankers that do these deals claim fractions of that income for having "originated", "structured" and "closed" the deal. Without that important factoid that investment banking income in big, discrete, relatively rare amounts and not from lots of small transactions, you don't get the whole phenomenon of income capture, income concentration and all the instruments built on top of it.

Retail banking may not be seen as a very nice industry, but it's not the one creating the Anglo Disease.

And landing to relatively small organic farming activities will be retail, almost by definition - given how important local conditions are meant to be.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 04:33:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, I don't think so (4.00 / 2)

Are you saying the banks don't profit from the interest of their small loans?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 04:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Banks do (4.00 / 2)

but not investment bankers.

What makes investment banking so unusual as an industry is that it is the "workers" (i.e. the investment bankers above a certain pay grade/ in certain jobs) that capture most of the income. A very small number of people get a massive benefit from a system whereby other companies are rules for financial profit and engage in large financial transactions (mergers and acquisitions, structured financing, securitization of future cahs flows, etc...) from which they can capture a big chunk of the income generated/captured.

This is the easiest way to get very rich very quickly (the other way is to be a high level manager of a big company, essentially the mirror image of the other - in effect the two sides collude to capture money from the company's future via financial engineering). And this is what drives the financiarisation of business - massive personal interest.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 05:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Banks do (none / 0)

Banks do but not investment bankers

Yes, I figured that's what you meant.

Now, will these retail banks be retail operations themselves, or will the profit generated by the bank be captured by the high-level managers of big banks?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 05:25:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The latter (none / 1)

but if it's the only industry where that happens, it's a lot easier to deal with. Banking is a heavily regulated industry, as it should, and the example of the 30s (the Glass-Seagall Act) shows that you can limit the worst excesses.

The thing is to limit the influence of investment banking on other industries, and one way to do that is maybe to take a harder look at mergers and acquisitions.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 05:43:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you saying (4.00 / 5)

Where is the capital to start a small local unit going to come from?

Credit unions are an interesting alternative.

I can imagine a kind of social banking where loans are made by a local unit to individuals, and the ties they create as much personal as social.

Defaulting on a bank loan is much less traumatic when the bank is faceless and distant. When people know the other people they owe money to and everyone is in the same community, they're - usually - that much more likely to want to arrange pay back.

You could argue that the roots of the Anglo disease is a cult of impersonality and pseudo-objectivity. When economists, politicians, CEOs and bankers are personally isolated from the consequences of their actions, they have no incentive to consider social relationsships.

This kind of levitation would be much harder if pay-back was personal.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 05:33:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you saying (4.00 / 2)

Credit Unions are a very poor alternative, because they are merely deposit taking and lending institutions moving around PRE EXISTING wealth or "money's worth".

Banks create new credit=Money on the back of their capital base, and it is this supply of "new" value (actually it's deficit-based "anti-value") that serves as the lifeblood of our economy and provides the building blocks of new businesses.

And for the reasons you give, people are not too bothered about defaulting - and that is without even understanding (not one person in 10,000 understands) the reality of deficit-based "fractional reserve" banking. If they truly understood that, people would be trashing the banks wholesale.

The real alternative is for the members of credit unions and local businesses to get together within a local (or functional) "Guarantee Society" legal protocol and to mutually guarantee bilateral credit granted "peer to peer" between Members. This would take place between people who know each other or have some sort of "common bond" (which is of course a requirement for credit unions)

No interest is charged within this GS model, but costs and defaults are shared through making provisions into a "Default Fund". The result is "banking without the bank" ie no credit intermediary but a requirement for either a bank,credit union, ratings agency, whatever, as a service-provider.

Great for a Bank, by the way: they no longer have to put capital at risk since they no longer create the credit but instead manage credit creation, system integrity and operation.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 07:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Credit Unions (none / 1)

You can find CUs operating in the manner you outline in so far as they can under the banking regulations. A CU must charge "Interest" on loans or be shut down. A CU must pay "Interest" on deposits or be shut down. How a Credit Union goes about charging and paying "Interest" depends on the political, economic, and social stances of the Board of Directors and the sneakiness of their legal team. ;-)

Of course, when I was the President of a Credit Union we strictly followed the banking regulations and the rules and restrictions of Proper Banking Practice.

8-9

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 11:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Credit Unions (none / 0)

My CU in Colorado charged interest on loans, but paid "dividends" on savings. We were legally considered "members" instead of depositors.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Credit Unions (none / 0)

That is necessary legal verbage for a CU.

Legally when you put money into your account you were buying "shares" in the CU and you wrote a "share-draft" instead of a check.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you saying (4.00 / 2)

To bring us full circle to the top of the thread, how about farming franchises?
In exchange for your investment and part of profits, you get help buying land, training, and a silly paper hat.
(Other people than I that don't just come here for the jokes could probably expand on that idea. More likely they will point us to a website that shows it's already being done, and done better.)

(If farmers could have actual holidays, I think it could be a lot more popular. But no, those spoiled cows want to be milked, like every day.)

(Here's another one: you invest in your local farm, in exchange for 5% off produce. Farmers get capital, and a guaranteed market. And you could help out plant the emus or whatever.)

by Number 6 on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 10:51:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you saying (4.00 / 3)

... you invest in your local farm, in exchange for 5% off produce. Farmers get capital, and a guaranteed market.

There is already a small movement among the alternative ag people doing exactly this. The idea is to give the farmer a larger percentage of the consumer price while the consumer gets a 10-15% break. And it works if the farm is close enough to a large enough population so the numbers all work out.

The sad fact seems to be the vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy eating rubbery vegetables and fatty meats.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 11:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Ploughshares to Cow Shares (4.00 / 3)

Now I wouldn't do exactly what these guys are doing up here in Scotland

Cow Shares

but they're on the right lines...

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 12:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Ploughshares to Cow Shares (4.00 / 3)

This is neat [emphasis added]:

The idea originated in the celebrated case of Deli Dollars in Great Barrington, Massachusetts. When a local delicatessen owner was refused a bank loan to finance an extension, he turned to his clientele. He issued "deli dollars" - refundable over the course of the following year - to the value of $5,000. In this way, his customers pre-financed the extension. In return, he was guaranteed $5,000 worth of custom and his delicatessen grew even more in the affection and esteem of its local community. What is more, the deli dollars started doing the rounds as an alternative currency, even turning up in the collection plate of a local cleric who was known to have a taste for the deli's pizzas.

I really like the idea of asset-backed currencies.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:37:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Ploughshares to Cow Shares (4.00 / 2)

Now that's neat!

I'd prefer interest paid in cheese if that's OK.

by Number 6 on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:20:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you saying (none / 1)

The sad fact seems to be the vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy eating rubbery vegetables and fatty meats.

"People are stupider than anybody."
-Tom Lehrer, Interview in The Onion AV Club.

by Number 6 on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

growing rice in Australia (none / 1)

Wait, are you implying that growing rice in Australia maybe isn't the best idea humankind has ever come up with?

:D [snork!]

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 07:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another Urban Legend Bites the Dust (4.00 / 2)

I said something along those lines in my diary on dKos, but in the opposite direction ... on the transition back to an energy efficient economy ... oddly enough, even though the diary was intended to promoted DoDo's series based on the local rail tome that he posted here recently (username Daneel on dKos) (here is the latest, which deserves a serious boost), it was my diary that was rescued. ... sometimes things just work out backwards.

Anyway, back to the story, I said:

...
More to the point is the idea that "public transport" is one category ... a single pigeon hole for everybody who does not want or cannot drive a car, plus those unusual cities that never agreed to destroy themselves with an entirely auto-dependent public transport system, and so retained a portion of a pre-existing system to build upon.
So in other word, the argument is a symptom of the core problem ... the absurd idea that a one-size-fits-all system is possible. In reality, one size fits all systems never actually fit all, and they never fit most very well.

...

And especially for all of us who took the 7/7/07 Live Earth pledge, equipping ourselves with information is one of the most important things we can do to meet the transport point in our pledge. Because while "one size fits all" works fine based on stereotypes of what "most" people iin "most" places "mostly" want to do "most" of the time, an energy efficient transport system requires a far more information intensive understanding of what particular people in particular places want to do in particular at particular times of day.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jul 15th, 2007 at 06:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another Urban Legend Bites the Dust | 55 comments (55 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - December 2023

Clean Energy Wire's Fact Sheet on Upcoming Dutch Election

Recent Diaries

Mark Rutte: Using the Nation to Become Secretary General

December 2023

Netanyahu Tells Biden Fu*k Off

Keeping Up with COP28

A Sort-a Truce Extended 24 Hours

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - December 2023

NeXiT the Trump Era of Dutch PM Wilders

Erasure of Palestinians the Zionist Dream

21st Century Pax Americana and Violence

Dublin Far Right Riots After Knife Attack

Clean Break From Peace to War

Woodrow Wilson's Collapse and the Peace Movement

A Children's Sing-Along Annihilate Everyone In Gaza

Xi - Joe Launch a New Communication Probe

The Israeli War Hoax of 40 Beheaded Babies

If Palestinians Are 'Animals'? What Are the Israelis?

Gaza Atrocities and the UN Fail

Clean Energy Wire's Fact Sheet on Upcoming Dutch Election

Broadening the War to Lebanon and Syria-Iraq

Dishonest Hope and Trust In a Two-State Option

Occasional Series