Bolivar versus Washington | 73 comments (73 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Bolivar versus Washington (none / 1)

What is socialism? Is there one all-encompassing definition for socialism? Is it a mode of production? Is it a political party? If the latter is the case, can socialism then exist within a capitalist multiparty context? Can you pinpoint a definition for me? Or perhaps more pertinent is how many countries fit the (or a given) description of "socialist". Case in point - Not all countries that belong to the Socialist International are "socialist", according to a given definition.

Also could you be a bit more specific in what you are referring to. If you are referring to my colleague's article, wherein he states: No hay que ser parte del "núcleo duro" (socialista) para participar en los programas del ALBA, I think he is referring to the nucleus being Cuba and Venezuela. We can also discuss if either of them qualify as "socialist".

I guess in your eyes, I have committed the sin of being an economist. Nevertheless I am perhaps too flexible in my use of hte terminology (which often doesn't jibe well with academics).

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 02:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolivar versus Washington (4.00 / 2)

You can quibble over terms and dictionary definitions, but the roots of socialism - and communism for that matter - are simple enough. I made it easy by putting them in the next sentence.

Is Chavez a socialist? He has nationalised key industries and redistributed wealth for public benefit, so I'd say yes. He may, or may not be, a dictator. Being a dictator is orthogonal to the socialism/capitalism axis and doesn't deal with that particular question in any direct or useful way.

As for the sin of being economist - the only sin in being an economist is assuming that it's the only useful way to understand how the world works.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 04:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolivar versus Washington (none / 1)

I'll buy your last sentence.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 04:33:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolivar versus Washington (none / 1)

I'll take PayPal. :)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolivar versus Washington (4.00 / 2)

As many understand socialism it is first and foremost a political ideology that is deeply rooted in economical theory. In general that is not any different from other political ideologies.

That said socialism is in essence the equal distribution of wealth in society and that has to be done by taking control over the means of production, that is advocating a specific economic system although in different degrees (some people advocate taking absolute control over the means of production others advocate just taking partial, even minimal, control over the means of production: Communism/Marxism vs. Social Democracy).

There are no countries that are members of the Socialist International, only political parties.

And yes, I believe it is possible to have a socialist party advocating and executing socialist policies within a pluralistic political system that have a mixed or capitalist economical system. You just have to be able and willing to differentiate between a political system and the economic system even if the two systems are interdependent.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 04:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolivar versus Washington (none / 0)

I don't think that Socialism has ever (or can ever)come to terms with the increasing prevalence of "Intellectual Property" and a "Knowledge-based" Society.

How would be spread that "Wealth" around equitably?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 05:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Redistributive taxation (none / 0)

They (the gov't authority) will reach into your pocket, remove a Euro and give it to Freddy, who doesn't have one.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 05:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Redistributive taxation (none / 0)

You're talking about Income. I'm talking about the Means Of Production, although I guess I should have said so...

Redistribution of Income doesn't get us very far, does it?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 05:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now there is an interesting dichotomy! (none / 0)

I think Europeans cast the threshold at a different point than do North Americans, no? I mean, "socialism" in America is understood to encompass public ownership of the means of production (even if partial) while excluding the redistributive nature of taxation, while Europeans would include both, no? Furthermore, I don't think Americans would consider Social Security as "socialist". Anyway, my overall impression is that Americans have this aversion to "socialism" that the Europeans don't have.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now there is an interesting dichotomy! (none / 0)

I think that perhaps the defining feature of the North American / "Western" model is the attitude to individual "ownership" and private property rights.

More than any other aspect. And this appears to me to be entirely consistent with what you say.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bolivar versus Washington (none / 0)

Well, you are right that socialism is an ideology that emerged in a society were commodities were touchable. In todays society when knowledge/education and service is an ever increasing "commodity" some would say that this makes some of the old political ideologies irrelevant. I do not think so. As long as knowledge and services can be converted into money and hard currency the old rules still apply. One aim, is the equal and free distribution of education, another is to redistribute the tax revenues the state gets to the lesser fortunate in society.

As long as knowledge generates money they can be redistributed.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Economic "miscegenation" rules! (none / 1)

Precisely my point. In fact there does not exist pure (or perfect or absolute) socialism nor capitalism, for that matter. We are a product of both and there are elements of socialism and capitalism in all economies. Who, then, sets the thresholds?

By the way, thanks for correcting my mistake on the SI.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 05:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bolivar versus Washington | 73 comments (73 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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