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I think intuition as you're using it here possibly isn't what RAW means.

For me, intuition is defined by knowing things - and I mean accurately knowing things - that can't be worked out using IIIrd circuit tools.

If someone logs onto Second Life for the first time and finds their way to the virtual property of a friend by flying around at random, that would be intuition.

It can be explained as coincidence, but it's so statistically improbable, given how big Second Life is, that it's actually very unlikely. Especially when similarly unlikely things happen to them rather a lot. (Not a hypothetical, BTW - I know someone who operates like this.)

What you're calling intuition seems to be more about default assumptions about the world. Most of the time people don't need to know whether it's the earth or the sun that's moving. It's enough to know that when it's daytime the sun is up, and then it gets dark for a while, and there are seasons which make the cycle vary, and that's pretty much it.

The point of science is that it asks lots of 'Yes, but...' questions and eventually you end up in a place which looks nothing like that view of the world. It happens to be more useful and inclusive for certain things, but the fact that it's not rooted in everyday experience is exactly why - it doesn't take things at face value.

So at face value the birthday paradox, or the fact that the odds of a coin showing heads are always a nominal 50%, even after a freak run of 1,000 heads in the past, makes no sense. That's because our face value views of the world didn't evolve to deal with those kinds of problems.

If there's a point to science education it's that the face value view of the world is tentative and usually limited. Chasing after a more comprehensive view is very much a IIIrd circuit thing to do. And - as RAW says - it's easy spin your wheels endlessly in 'Yes, but...' without getting anywhere useful. Especially if you don't have peer review and other kinds of reality checks to stop the process becoming parasitic on your consciousness.

Intuition can sometimes short-circuit that, not by building a more accurate map - which is what the crank-types always try to do, and fail - but by realising that sometimes you don't need either Science[tm] or face value to connect with reality in a useful and fun way.

Similarly with drugs, you can take the experiences at face value. You can analyse them intellectually to build a map. Or you can 'know' what you do and don't need from them, and what's right for you. There is a kind of messianic narrative about drugs which suggests that using them will help you to know. But in practice face-value use seems to be more common than that. and it's the odder non-mainstream drugs, like ibogaine and ayahuasca, that seem to have more potential for persistent intuition. Weed and LSD - not so much, I think.

As for music, it's true that people have to practice. But for some teachers that's an end in itself. It's about teaching values like persistence and hard work for their own sake, and not about making performance skills fit into a bigger picture of Bach's intentions and musical spirit. For me that's a crippling and not a liberating way to teach music.

The basic narrative here is personal liberation. The progressive idea is that if people can function without being crippled, they won't need the kind of oversight that conservatives believe is essential.

Conservatives know what goes on in their own souls more than they understand anyone else. On that basis it's not surprising they want to control the world, lock it up, and declare war on it.

With higher circuits those knee-jerk conservative reactions become frightening first, then pitiful, then rather funny.

But conservatives won't see it like that, because the idea that a world of switched-on people might survive happily without their much coarses responses is something that's completely beyond their imagination.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 07:08:22 PM EST
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Intuition can sometimes short-circuit that, not by building a more accurate map - which is what the crank-types always try to do, and fail - but by realising that sometimes you don't need either Science[tm] or face value to connect with reality in a useful and fun way.

Yeah, that's the one.  What I'm aiming towards, maybe, is that the circuit V holistic view can sense with confidence where the face-value limits lie, has a channel to the hidden assumptions because, I dunno, once your fifth circuit starts firing regularly your assumptions are running constant tests against the realities around you--all of 'em, without prejudice--and seeing how they join...and as you say, in the context of drugs,

you can take the experiences at face value. You can analyse them intellectually to build a map. Or you can 'know' what you do and don't need from them, and what's right for you.

I realised somewhere in what I was writing that there is a paradox about asking a circuit V to teach what can't be taught, but I think that's what makes them ideal teachers--that endless living in reality as a holistic, intuitive, centred continuum, seeing when a particular scientific tool will have maximum effect in opening the student's eyes to all those realities happening around them...

Ya know, I think there are historic precendents for individual schools turning out amazing communities of students.  Summerhill comes to mind, as does the (maybe apocryphal, but I think it existed) primary school in Brooklyn that produced a number of nobel prize winners...and off to google I go to find a list of nobel prize winners and their schools....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize_laureates_by_secondary_school_affiliation

...though I'm sure there was a primary school where a bunch came from...anyways...

I take that to mean once you get those circuits firing up and through...ach...ya know, RAW always makes me chuckle and think, and that mix of humour and thought is, for me, a sign of someone working from...I dunno...I don't want to say "higher", maybe "wider"?, states of relation to their immediate realities.  

But yeah, intuition and its results.  I suppose I place myself with the stupid people and wonder how we can all get a bit less stupid, and if intuition is worth developing (and for this circuit III chap I think it definitely is because of its lateral nature), I think its worth giving those who are trying it out some slack if the results are sometimes...well...I suppose I'd say if the student is trying to learn then the mistakes are where the learning happens, and the pratfalls...a good laugh with rather than at the poor bloke with his face in a puddle (c'est moi), and then--and I think this is another circuit V element that is a powerful teaching tool--knowing what to do next...a helping hand?  Dive in the puddle too and have a splash around?  Hand the guy in the puddle a towel?  Or a drink?  Or maybe the circuit V tripped them up?  All so fast and subtle and science, yeah, its in there, I think you're saying its key role is when what appears ain't necessarily so, and how to maintain that scepticism while being fully engaged...ach...but yeah, sommat along those lines.

I think the real loss of scientific thought among the general population came when what science was discovering in the sixties was stomped on by the police.  HST placed it to the '68 convention in Chicago--that was when he saw it stomped.  There's that part in Fear & Loathing where he says something like, "Nobody wants mind expanders these days.  Reality is too harsh.  No, now it's all about downers.  Blot it out, man!"  Only he wrote it a lot better.

RAW, for me, was right in there as the science expanded; these guys knew--and shared ideas with--the cutting edge scientists of their day.

In fact, as it's late, I'll suggest that this har internet is one of the fruits of that widening of consciousness--the widening of the field of understanding and its myriad forms--heh...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 07:48:05 PM EST
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interestingly, people who suffer from adrenal fatigue or exhaustion (Addison's Disease) develop a very strong sense of empathy, and can read other people's feelings.

in traditional Chinese medicine, this is associated with the kidney meridian, which controls the person's self-will.  so, when one's self-will is weak, one can read other people's emotions and feel them as if they are one's own.

by zoe on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 08:38:09 AM EST
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