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Yeah, those Altamont Pass wind turbines are pretty ugly--which means that under the "iron" law of fluid aesthetics, they are inefficient as well.  They also had lattice towers and so provided perches for birds who would then launch themselves into those rapidly spinning blades.

MOST of the wind-turbines-are-hazardous-to-birds story comes from those primitive turbines in Altamont Pass.  This is an incredible wind site--why hasn't anyone replaced those worthless pieces of junk?

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Tue Jul 31st, 2007 at 04:56:20 PM EST
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i used to drive by those birdblenders on I 5 (iirc)...nasty but necessary...

it's time they we upgraded, they're bad pr now.

"iron" law of fluid aesthetics, they are inefficient as well.

lol, that's delightful, is it your creation?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 at 03:33:57 AM EST
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I think so

I first noticed this with airplanes.  Those that looked fast almost always were.  Then I noticed it with sailboats, and with cars.  One day it dawned on me that anything that operates in a fluid will have an aesthetic value that is actually predictable.

I believe that aesthetics has an evolutionary basis.  For example, baby anythings are so cute and adorable they actually cause parents to care for them.  And of course, the concept of infinity does not begin to describe what men will do to have sex with an attractive mate.

So, since aesthetics can be used to explain human behavior, I have wondered what other applications a lust for beauty can put to.  Hence my interest in the shapes produced from the study of fluid dynamics.

Rembrandt and I happen to think windmills are beautiful.


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 at 04:14:56 AM EST
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Since you can negotiate Veblen's prose, I should suggest to you D'arcy Thompson's On Growth and Form, a book I haven't read but I have seen mentioned in every serious discussion of physical constraints to builogical form. And, on the subject of growth, there's Julian Huxley's Problems of Relative Growth, another classic which I have read and found fascinating.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 at 04:59:28 AM EST
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You might enjoy the writing of Paul Graham on 'design'. Also, Geezer in Paris (when he's back online after the summer) would have a lot to talk with you about the aerodynamics of planes, sails and boats.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 at 05:44:09 AM EST
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As a major developer of the Altamont Pass, i reject the notion of birdblenders.  Those ancient turbines, most of which are still spinning, were the birth of the modern wind industry.  They should be revered as the musem pieces they are, and not be compared with the technological revolution which produced the modern 90 meter diameter turbines of today.

The effect on avian mortality IS ONLY PRESENT IN THE ALTAMONT PASS, and in a sane world would be no reflection on the avian effects of turbines of today.  In fact, worldwide there is no evidence that windpower has a significant destructive effect on flying wildlife.  Despite the industry admitting that in the Altamont we did have a negative effect, solely due to site conditions and the particular turbines involved.

But that negative effect is far outweighed by the cumulative effect of normal poison power production on avian wildlife.

The industry is far advanced from those days, but would never have evolved to such high levels if it wasn't for the data from those early turbines.  To me, they may be archaic technology, but they are still beautiful.

And the new turbines are wonders in their own right.

I'm commenting from a hotel in the middle of a due diligence trip to evaluate the performance of a new generation of turbines, and am thankful both for a few minutes to comment, and the luck to still be involved at the heart of this necessary industry.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 at 08:02:11 PM EST
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ouch, you're right, bit too flip for my own good there, sorry...

i love birds as much as the next guy, and i think it was a giant red herring, all that fuss about them.

penny farthings squashed worms and bugs too, after all...

thanks for your work in this exciting field.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 at 08:26:56 PM EST
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and largely find the developments, if appropriately sited, designed and managed, quite lovely and wonderful solutions to our energy needs.

but I have to take issue with this:

"In fact, worldwide there is no evidence that windpower has a significant destructive effect on flying wildlife."

This is simply not the case. There is growing evidence certainly in Australia that for reasons that even the best science can't quite work out yet, there is a behaviour response from some birds that puts them at risk from wind turbines. Poor siting has also been a major issue, including in Australia the siting of one windfarm directly in a rare bird species' migration path. There has also not been sufficient work done here on the mortality risks to bats.

My point would be that windpower is overwhelmingly a beneficial development, but proponents of it risk losing credibility when they play down known impacts from them such as bird and bat kills. These impacts are  far and away best tackled by open recognition that this is a key impact that needs to be mitigated, through better science & design, and ensuring that there is sufficiently strong regulation to stop the inappropriate siting and design of wind turbines - such as in bird migration paths.

As it is, sadly in Tasmania, that particular windfarm if it can't work out a way to stop the far higher than estimated wedge-tailed eagle deaths, will be a significant contributor to the extinction of the species, the largest raptor in Australia. I commend the windfarm operators for taking the steps they have, but it incontrovertibly highlights that your statement is incorrect.

"This can't possibly get more disturbing!" - Willow

by myriad (imogenk at wildmail dot com) on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 at 09:12:00 PM EST
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Hey, "strong proponent," i said no SIGNIFICANT issue.  Significant, in my view, is the 60,000 premature deaths a year in the US from particulates, many of which are eliminated by windpower.  Significant, is the 2 million deaths per year in China, as reported by that environmental group the World Bank.

Don't hold an industry trying to provide a workable solution to our climate crises responsible for a few poorly sited projects, when overarching greed has affected virtually every industry known to man.

If you really were a strong proponent, you'd comment on the real issues, instead of expecting the windpower industry to be the first business to provide its own police force.  

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 at 02:06:47 AM EST
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Those ancient turbines, most of which are still spinning, were the birth of the modern wind industry.  They should be revered as the musem pieces they are, and not be compared with the technological revolution which produced the modern 90 meter diameter turbines of today.

If these are museum pieces, then WHY aren't they in a museum?

I live in Minnesota.  Tonight we are in a state of shock because a major highway bridge collapsed into the Mississippi River.  I am furious at the sort of people who think it is OK to delay replacement of infrastructure.  It makes NO DIFFERENCE if the wind industry was born in Altamont Pass (an utterly absurd claim, BTW).  The fact is that these old turbines are AT LEAST 15 YEARS out of date.  Now they are simply a PR disaster.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 at 12:33:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry for your shock-induced furor, but you should do some research before you make arguments.  I didn't say windpower was born in the Altamont Pass, i said the wind INDUSTRY was born there, meaning commercial use of turbines.  The Danish industry wouldn't have made the strides it did without the COMMERCIAL sale of turbines to California, in the first years primarily to the Altamont.

I agree that the Altamont turbines are a PR disaster, but you should find out why and who has prevented the Altamont repowering proposals from going forward before you slam the industry.  The industry has been trying to upgrade the Altamont for over a decade; stopped by hostile utilities, the legislature and the misunderstood bird issue.

Those turbines represent the living claim that turbines have a useful life of at least 20 years.  They should, however, be replaced, but modern turbines won't fit the bill.  The Altamont wind resource isn't thick enough, and sometimes doesn't even reach 300 feet high.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 at 01:58:54 AM EST
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I have done YEARS of research.  Thank you very much.

You claim the Danish wind turbine industry wouldn't have made the great commerial strides it did without a few orders from Altamont.  How very "ugly American" of you.  I truly hope you don't actually believe such nonsense.

And if you did some research, you would know that I have NEVER blamed the wind turbine industry for their inability to do a better job.  In fact, I have written BOOKS on the subject of whom to blame and trust me, the manufacturers aren't even on my list.

Don't you have ANYTHING better to do with your life than defend the garbage turbines at Altamont???

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 at 02:34:13 AM EST
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Don't you have ANYTHING better to do with your life than defend the garbage turbines at Altamont???

Don't you think that's going over the line?

Crazy Horse says those turbines should be replaced. What he does with his life is work for wind power. Not much point in the two of you SHOUTING at each other?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 at 02:57:56 AM EST
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afew, he's talking about the land i've walked a thousand times, and the project i built with my sweat and guts.  and he may be a supporter (Look at the beautiful post) but he's missed totally the California effect on windpower's growth.

I know exactly what happened in Denmark at the start of the industry, as i was a guest of the first modern Danish turbine designer.  I sat at dinner tonight with one (northern European) who also watched the industry's birth, and he strongly confirmed my statement.  I've been stunned as dozens of Danish pioneers welcomed those whose purchases gave Denmark a new industry, and when i was last at the Risoe unannounced, dozens of staff came to the room to express their thanks and hear the latest.

And i absolutely stand by the statement that we couldn't today be selling around the world brand new 90 meter turbine designs as having a 20 year life, without the fact that the 15 meter Altamont turbines have already done that and more.

For him to attack someone who built some of the projects he's trashing as garbage, who doesn't seem to know anything about the 12 year effort to replace those machines, is akin to sacrilege.  That ancient garbage provided in a few years the engineering data which allowed an infant industry to develope, mature and expand to what it is today.  Without that data, including critical loads data, there would be no wind industry today.

And about the birds... when people are dying and more millions each year are at risk, what can one say?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 at 06:33:03 PM EST
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The passion's understandable and all to the good, imo. It'd be nice if your disagreement didn't go beyond the line into personal invective, though - and it seemed to be getting there, hence my quote from techno and my comment.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 3rd, 2007 at 08:16:30 AM EST
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