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If I understand this correct:

The objective (outside?) is distinct from the subjective. But somehow it "oozes" out, so we can perceive it, and our brain fashion it?

What is active, and what is passive here? Can the objective world be active, and if so how? It appears you would say no. And the objective world only becomes world by us, the subject, making it so? so the "oozing" is an action by the subject?

What is manifest love?

by PeWi on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 09:36:55 AM EST
No the objective isn't distinct from the subjective. In fact each subjective is contained within the objective.

However it doesn't look like that from where I'm standing because I'm inside my subjective.

What is manifest love??

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 09:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If each subjective is contained within the objective - how is it then distinct? Is the subjective a part of the objective, or the objective a part of the subjective? I love the theory of sets...

I was also assuming that objective means tangible, like stones or air, but can also mean idea, like capitalism, or love. How is a stone subjective, or its experience? Yes, it is only ever you, that feels that stone, but if you and I feel that stone, we might come to the same conclusion (or to a completely opposite one, but you might agree with fran on it) - so do you and fran then share a objective view, while I am excluded, or is only the summation of our three views/ experiences the real objective view. What happens if Jerome comes along and from our descriptions recreates a perfect copy of said stone, which would cause the same "feeling" within you and me but not fran?

What is manifest love? God.

by PeWi on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<to the tune of angels dancing>

Who said the subjectives were distinct from the objective? They're contained within it, necessarily.

Your last line is entirely free of meaning for me, by the way.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your last line is entirely free of meaning for me, by the way

Of course it is.

You are therefore also aware, that angels have only ever spun on top of needles in the spin created by people maligning Thomas Aquinas?

However, this is an important question, as to the distinction of the subjective and objective, and while I am prone to pilpul - splitting hairs (Which I prefere to dancing on needles) I really would like to know.
So, all subjectives are contained within the objective? even those that contradict each other? Within an idea, I can understand, but within the "outside" world? Also how is your subjective experience contained in the stone? Also, are all subjectives accessible to everybody, by looking at that stone?

anyway (-: Maybe just point me to a book, ought to go back to work anyway...

by PeWi on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:20:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, all subjectives are contained within the objective? even those that contradict each other?

Absolutely: the subjectives are the models built (at least) by the various physical humans within the physical, objective universe. They're a property of arrangements of matter and energy within that universe.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The subjectives are perceived qualia, and no one has any idea what subjective perception is or where it comes from.

You can make up stories about it - first there are perceptions, then they organise themselves recursively so that the model includes itself - but you're in the world of metaphor, not of real science.

It would be ironic if subjectivity turned out to be metaphysical after all.

But - who knows?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 03:23:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, are all subjectives accessible to everybody, by looking at that stone?

the sensations of experiencing the stone are a good starting point for a conversation.

it's hilarious how people sometimes can't agree what colour something is!!

i think the stone wonders about us too...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 08:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh oh - here comes René.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:33:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like a song title.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:39:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be 'Walk away Renee' ;-)

From deep inside the tears that I'm forced to cry
From deep inside the pain that I chose to hide

Chorus 2:
Just walk away, Renee
You won't see me follow you back home
Now, as the rain beats down upon my weary eyes,
For me, it cries


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beat me ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:58:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Snooze, you fuse... ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 11:18:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
isn't that Walk away Renee?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:57:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the association...whitebread whining, gruesome...

one of the awfullest songs from a terrible time....

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 08:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and Rene Descarte was a drunken fart,
I drink therefore I am

Philosopher's Drinking Song

Python, Mighty

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 07:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to back up all your scientific evidence:


"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 at 07:36:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought PeWi was talking about Immanuel.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 1st, 2007 at 05:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Our subjective reality is a distortion of objective reality, as our subjective reality doesn't contain all information contained in objective reality (we don't know everything). Instead we interpolate and extrapolate with the limited amount of information at our disposal to create our subjective reality.

Okay, I have no idea really, I just made all that up.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:13:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, I have no idea really, I just made all that up.

Bingo. :)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:43:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
snort....hilarious...funniest comment on the thread!

psst, i think you're sposed to call that 'channeling', dude/ss....

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 08:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I could bore you for days telling you - and other innocent by-standers - why:

Our subjective reality is a distortion of objective reality, as our subjective reality doesn't contain all information contained in objective reality (we don't know everything). Instead we interpolate and extrapolate with the limited amount of information at our disposal to create our subjective reality.

is accurate.  I like it so much I'm going to steal it. (But, please to call it 'research'!)

The only quibble I can muster is the use of "distortion" which is emotive and incorrect.  I would prefer the term "range of response to".

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 09:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I vote with ATinNM on this.
(Except that I read "distortion" as a more neutral term.)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 03:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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