Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
If each subjective is contained within the objective - how is it then distinct? Is the subjective a part of the objective, or the objective a part of the subjective? I love the theory of sets...

I was also assuming that objective means tangible, like stones or air, but can also mean idea, like capitalism, or love. How is a stone subjective, or its experience? Yes, it is only ever you, that feels that stone, but if you and I feel that stone, we might come to the same conclusion (or to a completely opposite one, but you might agree with fran on it) - so do you and fran then share a objective view, while I am excluded, or is only the summation of our three views/ experiences the real objective view. What happens if Jerome comes along and from our descriptions recreates a perfect copy of said stone, which would cause the same "feeling" within you and me but not fran?

What is manifest love? God.

by PeWi on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<to the tune of angels dancing>

Who said the subjectives were distinct from the objective? They're contained within it, necessarily.

Your last line is entirely free of meaning for me, by the way.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your last line is entirely free of meaning for me, by the way

Of course it is.

You are therefore also aware, that angels have only ever spun on top of needles in the spin created by people maligning Thomas Aquinas?

However, this is an important question, as to the distinction of the subjective and objective, and while I am prone to pilpul - splitting hairs (Which I prefere to dancing on needles) I really would like to know.
So, all subjectives are contained within the objective? even those that contradict each other? Within an idea, I can understand, but within the "outside" world? Also how is your subjective experience contained in the stone? Also, are all subjectives accessible to everybody, by looking at that stone?

anyway (-: Maybe just point me to a book, ought to go back to work anyway...

by PeWi on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:20:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, all subjectives are contained within the objective? even those that contradict each other?

Absolutely: the subjectives are the models built (at least) by the various physical humans within the physical, objective universe. They're a property of arrangements of matter and energy within that universe.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 10:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The subjectives are perceived qualia, and no one has any idea what subjective perception is or where it comes from.

You can make up stories about it - first there are perceptions, then they organise themselves recursively so that the model includes itself - but you're in the world of metaphor, not of real science.

It would be ironic if subjectivity turned out to be metaphysical after all.

But - who knows?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 03:23:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, are all subjectives accessible to everybody, by looking at that stone?

the sensations of experiencing the stone are a good starting point for a conversation.

it's hilarious how people sometimes can't agree what colour something is!!

i think the stone wonders about us too...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 21st, 2007 at 08:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series