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I don't know about your country, but in Switzerland it is very hard to get citizenship, so there are families that have been here for 2, 3 maybe even more generations who aren't yet "Swiss" (this is common...a person without citizenship has a "C" permit - permanent resident...but not citizen)...even though their families have been born here, and know no other land as their home but here. But if this new law passes, then if someone screws up, the whole family is gone. To...where?? Now to me, that's absurd.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Sep 7th, 2007 at 02:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I emailed this article to the professor whom I'm taking an international law and human rights course from, and asked him what he thought.

He said that this was a case where there were differing understandings of citizenship.  Where in the United States and France you have the "law of the soil", i.e. if you are born here you are a citizen, Switzerland and many other European countries have the "law of the blood" you are a citizen only if born of a citizen.

Thus, you can have the situation where a family has lived for 2-3 generations but haven't earned citizenship.

On the more specific issue of whether the "collective punishment" aspect was something adjudicatable under international law, he said that in the absence of another violation of international human rights law, this is entirely "legal."  

On a side note, this particular professor was born stateless the child of Austrian Jewish parents in 1945 in Switzerland.  Although he's now an American, his first citizenship was Swiss, and he has quite a favorable opinion of Switzerland's record on human rights.

For me, I'm disturbed, because this is the country that my great grandfather came from in 1886.  Switzerland has been a democracy for over 700 years, the longest continous democracy in the world.  Yet, while the Swiss have their flaws, there is much of which to be proud.  And much to believe that though they will falter, they will not fall to the specter of history that confronts their neighbor to the north.


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Sep 7th, 2007 at 03:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have the opposite problem. It's extremely easy to get Swedish citizenship and we sort of throw it at everyone who moves here. Often so fast that when they commit crimes they are already citizens and we can't deport them. And (for some mad reason) it's illegal to strip naturalized citizens of their citizenships, so once they get their citizenship we are stuck with them.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 12:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a great system if you want to create anti-immigrant opinion, but not great for much else.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 12:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 15. (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
Why do you advocate stripping naturalised citizens of their nationality, and not any citizens?

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 12:26:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What use would it be? Where would you deport indigenous criminals? The North Pole?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 01:06:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And where do you deport naturalised criminals?

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 01:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To their country of origin.

By the way, the article you list above is precisely the reason that migrants destroy their identity papers before they take off for the Canaries.

I hate to be flippant (translation I enjoy being flippant), but if European countries were interested in limiting migration, they would pay for censuses in African countries.  And offer development aid in exchange for creating a Europol database that contained this information.  

That way you could end the very serious problem with abuse of this article of international law, which in the end undermine the protection it creates for actual cases of denaturalization of citizens by regimes that violate human rights.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 02:12:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I am aware of that.

But you cannot deport people to a country where they're not a national even if it's their "country of origin". The other country is not required to take them if they're not nationals. And we just had a discussion of how the Netherlands is requiring those applying for naturalisation to give up their previous nationality in order to "improve" integration.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 at 01:37:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We allow dual citizenship. And even if we didn't, it's not our problem. The criminals should have thought of that before they began comitting crimes.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 at 05:33:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure,
you just have to be able to prove your identity (beyond any doubt the migration service might present), have a clean criminal record and lived here for 4 or 5 years.

If you are sentenced the period is prolonged. If you have debts the period may be prolonged.

I guess the immigrants are not only criminal but also so lazy that they can not be bothered to commit the crimes they came here to commit until suddenly 4 or 5 years has passed and a swedish citizenship comes flying (after they filled in the forms, payed the fees, proved their identity)?

So how long would you want people to wait?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Sep 8th, 2007 at 09:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
10 years is a good number.

And having to pass exams in Swedish, language culture and history, making sure their loyalty has been transfered to their new country and so on.

The United States is, for once, a good example.

(even though they put more focus on language and loyalty and less on culture and history, maybe because they haven't got very much of those things)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 at 05:33:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
making sure their loyalty has been transfered to their new country

How should they demonstrate this "loyalty"? What does it even mean, exactly?

(I'm not sure I've ever felt loyalty to any country.)

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tzt) on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 at 08:01:01 AM EST
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The US has a President whose loyalty isn't to his own country.

What is loyalty to a country anyway?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 9th, 2007 at 10:10:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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