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One thing that bothers me about Dawkins is the simplification and the superficiality. An extremely complex subject is greatly simplified into easy duality - good versus evil. I've heard that one before - from religious fundamentalists - and in other forms from the American exceptionalists among lots of others.

They may think it's daft, but they have no intention to legislate against it. They have no intention of passing any law denying any religious person their rights, even those who would allow themselves or their children to die for such beliefs. They do not enforce codes of thought, behaviour, dress, sexual behaviour, who to love, what artistic expression they may indulge, what theatre they may see.

As with all such dual belief systems the above quote is false.  There is always an attempt to deny 'x' their rights. Dwarkans may not personally have such a desire, but some of his followers will. That is part of the popularity of this type of moral duality - it provides an excuse for oppression.

Islamofascist awareness week is precisely such an attempt to deny a religious person their rights - in this case by Christopher Hitchens. We can go further and put a label on this type of behavior. We can call it fascism. Ultimately part of fascism is based on duality.

It is not only the religious that can be attacked under the us vs. them logic. While this is not Dawkins thesis - the same moral dualism is used in Zionism. There are atheists who are a part of it - eagerly working to prevent rights to both "Arabs" and Muslims.

While placing emphasis on Einstein's atheism, Dawkins carefully ignored Einstein's view on what is the major problem facing humanity today. It wasn't religion. It was nationalism. Precisely the us vs. them view that Dawkins presents us in a different form.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

Science, with its eugenics, also has delved into the dark side of duality - us versus the diseased. We have seen what "science" can do when it falls into the good versus evil trap. This appears to be the logical direction that such simplistic thinking leads.

If religion is a disease, then don't we have a responsibility to protect the children of religions people from disease? Don't we have a responsibility to protect society from those who are religious? How can we cure those who are diseased?

This brings me to one other example of a diseased person cured by science: Alan Turing who was given electroshock treatments to cure him of his homosexuality.

Shall we point to eugenics, the US studies on syphilis in blacks, the British electroshock treatments to homosexuals, the injection of radioactive iron into poor pregnant women at Vanderbelt hospital - among many, many other examples, and conclude that science is evil?

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 at 05:30:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your own comment is an example of the "simplification" you attribute to Dawkins - no evidence at all - as with the earlier attacks which led to my diary on the subject:

One thing that bothers me about Dawkins is the simplification and the superficiality. An extremely complex subject is greatly simplified into easy duality - good versus evil.

Evidence ? Dawkins has acknowledged the obvious, that there are many religions, and many variations within any one religion and that there are moderates, liberals and some extremely sophisticated thinkers in them. Part of his complaint is that the more moderate elements lend respectability to the idea of basing one's major beliefs on faith and hence lend respectability to more extremist elements.

    They may think it's daft, but they have no intention to legislate against it. They have no intention of passing any law denying any religious person their rights, even those who would allow themselves or their children to die for such beliefs. They do not enforce codes of thought, behaviour, dress, sexual behaviour, who to love, what artistic expression they may indulge, what theatre they may see.

As with all such dual belief systems the above quote is false.  There is always an attempt to deny 'x' their rights. Dwarkans may not personally have such a desire, but some of his followers will.

What an absurd argument - against the centuries old, vast range of actual examples of religious intolerance, imposed through the law when they had control - we have what YOU think some of Dawkins' "followers" MIGHT do. And, of course, Dawkins is responsible for his own actions and words, not what some supposed "followers" might do - which he'd obviously not condone.

Now if you actually have any arguments about anything specific Dawkins has actually written or said - let's see it.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 at 05:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we have what YOU think some of Dawkins' "followers" MIGHT do

That you see nothing wrong with Islamofascist awareness week in the US tells much about yourself and the hate you trade in.

Part of his complaint is that the more moderate elements lend respectability to the idea of basing one's major beliefs on faith and hence lend respectability to more extremist elements.

So I am guilty by association. What's it gong to be? Up against the wall? Really, I don't think I need to know a whole lot more of this enlightened scientific view you are promoting.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 at 06:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

we have what YOU think some of Dawkins' "followers" MIGHT do

That you see nothing wrong with Islamofascist awareness week in the US tells much about yourself and the hate you trade in.

Where did I say that - and what does it have to do with Dawkins?

Part of his complaint is that the more moderate elements lend respectability to the idea of basing one's major beliefs on faith and hence lend respectability to more extremist elements.

So I am guilty by association. What's it gong to be? Up against the wall? Really, I don't think I need to know a whole lot more of this enlightened scientific view you are promoting.

 It's a perfectly reasonable argument that the moderates who defend using faith as a justification for beliefs do lend respectability to extremists' justifications of their views as based on faith. This doesn't mean - of course - that the moderates are entirely responsible for the extremists' actions. But your quick blurring of this distinction allows you to conclude that you don't want to know more - just the sort of attitude of which you were accusing Dawkins.  So you don't have to bother with the laborious business of dealing with what Dawkins himself actually says - instead YOU try guilt by association.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 at 07:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted - I don't know whether you are deliberately mis-reading my posts or not. It is clear that there is no point in talking to you further.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 at 07:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just as with Dawkins, you make accustaions but don't actually show in what way I'm supposedly "misreading" your posts. I think I have been disagreeing with your arguments - which I quoted to be clear.

But suit yourself.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 at 07:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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