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While I do not know about the appropriateness of exposing Children to fire and brimstone sermons on a daily or even weekly basis, note that Dawkins makes a sweeping statement about all of Christianity. He's doing more than putting these two concepts in the same room, too. He's making a claim of moral equivalency.
This is a fantastic, feel good statement written for people terrified by atheists, and framing this in terms of punishment verifies exactly which audience this article was written for. Sexual abuse is rightly punished by jail time, but to throw an entire culture in jail for their standard practices? Madness.

TNR does not write for people who are terrified by atheists, generally. You should try reading the complete piece. It's quite friendly to secularism.

Anyway, society has seen fit to throw people in jail over common practices of all kinds (prostitution, drugs, alcohol at some point). This derives from the puritan ethic, in a non-religious sense, the striving for purity, and I see quite a bit of that in Dawkins' expression of atheism.

Now...

Fear is a component of why people believe in X, and it it undermines this argument:

Contrary to what Dawkins thinks, religious belief is not perpetuated by infection and incapacitation of the intellect.

Pascal's wager is a powerful artificial viral tool.

It is primarily perpetuated by perpetuating the institutions of religious belief. That, I would guess, is mainly a story of power and social control.

You are describing inertia, not origin.


Religion is, by and large, inertia. Few people are voluntarily and spontaneously converted. Pascal's wager, for that matter, is just a curious intellectual exercise to someone whose mind has not already been imprinted with vivid images of hell.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 04:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

While I do not know about the appropriateness of exposing Children to fire and brimstone sermons on a daily or even weekly basis, note that Dawkins makes a sweeping statement about all of Christianity.

This is hardly a major plank of his general argument (critics hunt around for excuses for attack), but, for the record, his point about labelling children applies to all religions.

This derives from the puritan ethic, in a non-religious sense, the striving for purity, and I see quite a bit of that in Dawkins' expression of atheism.

Easy to allege, again, this would carry some weight if you actually gave some (one) examples. There's a difference between purity and clarity or trying to argue consistently. But - if that's what you're reduced to trying to pick on ... :-)

Religion is, by and large, inertia.

And various things can jerk them out of it - including books,  even very challenging ones - see the feedback on his site.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 06:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is hardly a major plank of his general argument (critics hunt around for excuses for attack), but, for the record, his point about labelling children applies to all religions.

Not all critics are alike :-)

As for the 'purity' part I note that Dawkins seems at pains to also make arguments against moderate believers who support secularism, and seems to feel that grave injustices are being done when a six year old visits a generic Catholic nun once a week.

But that is how it appears to me. It may just be a set of happy little accidents.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Jan 24th, 2008 at 03:28:15 PM EST
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But YOU as critic picked on this minor point - as elsewhere - longer reply coming :-)

His criticism of moderate Christians isn't "puritanism"; it's a quite logical and important argument - which you didn't seem to quite get (he wasn't saying the moderates teach the extremists), that they make relying on faith seem respectable, but it isn't, and in extreme cases it leads to extreme violence - also justified by faith.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Jan 26th, 2008 at 06:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I share his concern/outrage that young children are subjected to indoctrination which typically includes ideas about eternal punishment in hell for quite normal human behaviour - which can easily lead to the kind of nightmares from similar indocrination which MillMan suffered as a child. I'm surprised it doesn't concern you too.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Jan 26th, 2008 at 06:10:18 PM EST
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Did domeone say eternal punishment?

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Sat Jan 26th, 2008 at 11:52:41 PM EST
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What bothers me is that neither you nor MillMan nor Dawkins have done a review of how religion is generally brought across to children. Your statement of what is 'typical' is rather empty in that respect.

I stated to MillMan that I think giving a young child daily or even weekly brim and firestone lectures is unhealthy.

Exposing a child to the mere concept of eternal damnation is not a whole lot more damaging than exposing a child to the concept of absolute death. Or the boogeyman. What matters is how the idea is brought across, not the idea itself.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Jan 27th, 2008 at 12:54:24 PM EST
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It's funny how you find so many minor things to criticise about Dawkins - still not having read the book apparently  - but any excuse to pardon Christians. Isn't the idea of Hell a key part of christianity - and isn't it eternal punishment there? How many kids terrified by this absurd idea (organised by a loving god) would be too many for you? See also turambar's link.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Jan 27th, 2008 at 07:50:24 PM EST
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Dawkins is just one person. You can't make sweeping generalisations about one person, as easily :-)
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Jan 27th, 2008 at 08:45:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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