Kosovo declares independence | 190 comments (189 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

I'm a little ambivalent about all this as well. The drive of little ethnic groups to form independent nations is problematic at best. The difficulties and chain reactions have been thoroughly discussed here.
But it seems to me that Serbia has forfeited any claims to hegemony over ANYONE. There's plenty of blame to throw around, but Serbia has repeatedly proven its unfitness to be in a dominating position over any ethnic, racial, religious, national or other group. They broke the social contract and they can have no further claim to the people they tried to wipe out or the land upon which they live.
I wouldn't let Serbia into the EU until stops wearing a chip on its shoulder, trying to pick fights with everyone, and eliminating anyone it can dominate. The country has a profoundly immature attitude.
Two poor little picked on bullies: Putin and Serbia. Good luck and good night.

by Andhakari on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:13:34 AM EST

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

trying to pick fights with everyone, and eliminating anyone it can dominate.

HUH!? What you say was ten years ago. Since then, Milo has been toppled.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:08:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 3)

Despite Western™ hopes to the contrary, none of the various Serb leaders after Milosevic have been particularly pro-western. The narrative on uppity post-Milosevic Serbia has for some time looked a lot like coverage of uppity post-Yeltsin Russia: it's almost as if we had to be surprise that they raise their heads and assert themselves after "defeat".

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

Hah, I almost didn't catch the snark.

I remember the great hopes in the West for Kostunica. This was the Democrat who was the first to translate important documents of American democracy into Serbian.

Turned out he was a "nationalist" and a "hardliner."

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

I must note that at least in the German and Hungarian press I read at the time, Kostunica was considered a nationalist and a 'lesser ill' before the toppling of Milo. Zoran Đinđić was the clear choice for sympathetic presentation.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

I don't think this is about Milo. And it's not about forcing subservience, either. All I ever hear from Serbia is whining that they can't screw around with all the people they used to screw around, about how nobody (except Russia) likes them or trusts them.
I've never seen anything resembling contrition coming out of Serbia. Ten years is nothing when they can't understand or accept responsibility for the evil that came from their arrogance.
Russia's been using Serbia to cause trouble in the Balkans for a hundred years, and Serbia seems to still like the role.
If they want forgiveness they should say "sorry". All I've ever heard is "why are you picking on me -- I didn't do anything wrong". I'd have to be pretty gullible to believe that signifies a change in attitude. Why would I want to trust someone who did unspeakable evil and has never expressed contrition or a desire to mature. Wanting western money is not equivalent to wanting peace and harmony.

by Andhakari on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:28:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 3)

Well, they have apologized.

Have you been listening?

I don't think you have.

Then again, apologies in the region are hard to come by. Never an apology for the death camps in Croatia in WW2. Never an apology for Operation Storm, and in fact, when war criminals were arrested from the other side, the UN has sought to protect them (just Google Carla Del Ponte and Ramush Haradinaj). This story is a lot more complicated than you make out. You say the Serbs wanted to screw around with people without acknowledging things like Rambouillet which were clear attempts to screw around with them, nor acknowledging that the only group in the ex-Yugo prevented from seeking their own nation-state (in the Krajina, in Bosnia, in Slavonia, and now in northern Kosovo) was the Serbs.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:15:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 3)

I've never seen anything resembling contrition coming out of Serbia
To be fair, contrition is a luxury of the victor, not the vanquished...

In fact however, the current Serbian government expressed its contrition over the events surrounding Srebrenica and Croatia (in fact IIRC so did Babic - of all people)... I know not of any similar apologies from Croatia for Krajina or indeed the Bosnian Muslims regarding the actions of people such as Oric...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

In addition, let's not forget how the NATO failed to expect that units of the ~~terror group~~militia it supported, the KLA, would proceed to reverse ethnic cleanse ethnic Serbs as well as Gypsies from Kosovo, and how in 2004, they failed to rein in the anti-Serb pogroms (choosing force protection instead). Where is the contrition for that -- from the Kosovo government, and from NATO and its member countries?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

All I ever hear from Serbia is whining that they can't screw around with all the people they used to screw around

As an addition to what others wrote, I note: all you ever hear from Serbia is how the Western MSM you read present it, with neat wrapping. People should learn to apply the same scepticism to reporting as on Iraq.

Russia's been using Serbia to cause trouble in the Balkans for a hundred years

<sigh> Russia/the Soviet Union has been a rival and thus concern for Western imperiums for two centuries, and is thus subject to negative propaganda ever since. A propaganda that shuts out serious analysis of Russian moves (not to mention a denouncement of similar imperial policies by Western imperiums -- Russia never invaded the Western Balkans, but Austria-Hungary and Nazi Germany did so, as did NATO). In the current case, you completely ignore the break of international law, and its direct consequences to Russia's domestic and just-next-to-the-border concerns on territorial integrity.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

It was a civil war!!!Serbia was the strongest side militarily.Serbia tried to preserve state of Yugoslavia that Serbia earned through WWI and that survived WWII.How that makes Serbia bully???Serbia didn't pick fights and didn't fight outside ex Yugoslavia. Stop making stories that are not true.
Russia is on the side of law in this case.The biggest bully is USA and EU being it's ally.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:41:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Like I said, no contrition, no forgiveness.

by Andhakari on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 08:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

It really is a politic for dummies that you try to present here. If it is about contrition and forgiveness we all would have an easy job. But it's much more prosaic and materialistic then that...and dirty as politic always is.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 08:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

"a politic for dummies" -- we begin with forgetting genocide, and now we've moved on to personal attacks. So be it. Yes, I know all too well it's just about money. Just because all those people died cruel, pointless deaths doesn't mean we shouldn't get on with commerce. This nasty business of people getting out from under the thumb of a domineering and small minded nation is just so bothersome to the business of making money.
If Germany was intent on denying the holocaust, would you trust them to not do it again? Serbia could learn a lesson there, but they won't. Don't worry, I'm not such an idealist that I'm going to hold my breath until then. But I don't need their money either.
How about a politic for Republicans, a politic for corporatists, or a politic just for money?
"The only thing more dangerous then getting between a mama grizzly and her cub, is getting between a businessman and a dollar bill."

by Andhakari on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 10:07:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 3)

To understand where vbo is coming from, I recommend this rather long article:

Monthly Review

The breakup of Yugoslavia provided the fodder for what may have been the most misrepresented series of major events over the past twenty years. The journalistic and historical narratives that were imposed upon these wars have systematically distorted their nature, and were deeply prejudicial, downplaying the external factors that drove Yugoslavia's breakup while selectively exaggerating and misrepresenting the internal factors. Perhaps no civil wars--and Yugoslavia suffered multiple civil wars across several theaters, at least two of which remain unresolved--have ever been harvested as cynically by foreign powers to establish legal precedents and new categories of international duties and norms. Nor have any other civil wars been turned into such a proving ground for the related notions of "humanitarian intervention" and the "right [or responsibility] to protect." Yugoslavia's conflicts were not so much mediated by foreign powers as they were inflamed and exploited by them to advance policy goals. The result was a tsunami of lies and misrepresentations in whose wake the world is still reeling.

The short version is that the media version of genocidal Serbs does not hold up on closer inspection. There where atrocities and massacers, but the size of those are often exaggerated and only one sides crimes are reported.

Monthly Review

16,000 Serb civilians killed in Bosnia 1992-95 are effectively disappeared, while the 31,000 Muslim civilians killed in the latter years are elevated to world class status as victims of genocide.

Most important there was no genocidal campaign against croats or muslems in Serbia, where you could expect it to be worst would the Serbs really be genocidal. Actually, I think lots of people of different ethnicity fled to Serbia from the wars in Croatia and Bosnia. Have no link for it right now though.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 10:54:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Hmmm. I'll read the article, but it is worth noting that the Monthly Review hasn't prided itself as a friend of NATO over the years.
The International Court of Justice didn't find Serbia guilty of genocide, only that it didn't do anything to prevent the genocide or to facilitate the punishment of war criminals. I think they were giving Serbia a break. And it appears that there is a move amongst some Europeans to forget it ever happened, or to fog the issue with contentions of equivalent wrong-doing.
Frankly, the whole region has more than its share of murder, revenge, and massacre, and there is plenty of blame to spread. But let me get back to my point: Serbia has not been a responsible power. It does not seem to accept responsibility for the crimes the ICJ found it guilty of. Kosovo is not seeking to rule Serbia, it is seeking to be separate from a country which has not been a good steward. If Serbia wants peace, all it has to do is nothing at all.

by Andhakari on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:44:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

I think they were giving Serbia a break.

Based on what?
Why do you focus only on the crimes of Serbia? All sides committed ethnic cleanisng, chauvinist escapades, practiced no contrition, no forgiveness, and what you call immature posturing. It may be that you didn't read of those from the other sides and never have been there to experience it yourself, but that's just what UpstateNY's article is about -- media presentation.

To stress one point: Iraq was NOT the first war of the West where the MSM went on a spin overdrive, it was only the first where wide percentages of the population saw through it. Even blatant propaganda lies like in the case of WMDs weren't unprecedented -- upthread, UpstateNY mentions the Curveball story of the Kosovo War, which involved not Britain but Germany.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

that's just what UpstateNY's article is about

askod, not UpstateNY.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kosovo declares independence | 190 comments (189 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

Southern Irish disinterest in Northern Ireland affairs

The end is Nigh?

Leinster's demise and Munster's hope

Joe Biden. America's Interventionist Hero

The law of conservation of transness

Recent Diaries

Southern Irish disinterest in Northern Ireland affairs

Incident Ukrainian War Display Gets Int'l Attention

German Climate Activists Group Outlawed

Leinster's demise and Munster's hope

Joe Biden. America's Interventionist Hero

Targeted Assassinations: a Bankrupt Strategy

The end is Nigh?

Hijacking Peace by Zelensky for War Escalation

UA Drone Attack On Moscow

Rightwing Operation New EU 'Enlightenment’

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - May 2023

May 2023

The law of conservation of transness

US Provoked Conflict In Europe

U.S. Will Be Ousted From Middle-East

Settler Extremism Blessed by Jerusalem Leaders

Occasional Series