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I don't expect anything from "Serbians". You asked if any of us would not do the same thing, and I said I would not do the same thing. (And unlike you, I don't think all individuals included under "Serbians" think the same way.) *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
It is you who are putting words into my mouth: by Serbians, or Serbs, i designate the Serbian, or Serb, societies. Individuals organised around symbols. Like we, at ET.
You asked:
Are they different from you and me?
You and me are clearly different. (If I was a Serbian in Bosnia, I would NOT demand independence as soon as possible.) Don't you think members of any society can be just as different? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
You are taking refuge in your individuality.
You should try to understand my words. I try to understand yours.
that is why I understand now that my choice of words was denying YOU your individuality (not the Serbians). But it wasn't meant to be literal. After all, I know that you are an individual. I know more of what you say than many people you know.
If that was the point, you made it very badly. You asked us if anyone would disagree. That's categoric, not about majorities. What's more, it seems to be calling for sympathy and agreement. In light of your "taking refuge" comment, I also sense disdain for opinions other than spiteful nationalist.
But, now understanding your words, I do agree that a majority will feel like that. It is just this dynamics I fear.
I don't know where you come to this issue, but for me it is too close to home. I lived in what became Croatia, I saw it before, and I saw it after, including the ethnic-cleansed parts. And the damage in the heads, there is say the Croatian ship-boy I talked to, and asked about the ethnic cleansings, and he would justify it with the evils done by the JNA and the "Republic". *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
What we have produced along his thread was an escalade. "disdain" comes after "refuge" which comes after "y" which comes after "x" which ... which ...
In the British Navy of old, as punishment, a number of sailors used to be tied to a wheel, and each given a whip, to beat in the back of the man in front. What started with minor slashes ended always in violent whipping. Because people:
1- underestimate the pain the other person feels (a 40% difference, it is said) 2 -tend to forget why the other fellow reacted faster than the reason we beated on him
It is suggested that the reasons for that are respectively: 1- our sensors of pain detect only our pain 2 -our apparatus of reasoning can store more easily our reasons than other's.
I think we can agree that nationhood is a whip ready to fall on the back of every man, and the Balkans are a giant wheel amongst many.
Reference? There are a number of stupidly violent punishments administered by the Royal Navy in the past. but that one I've never heard of. Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
Two Eyes for an Eye: The Neuroscience of Force Escalation. Sukhwinder S. Shergill, Paul M. Bays Chris D. Frith, Daniel M. Wolpert. Science 11 July 2003: Vol. 301. no. 5630, p. 187
a summary is available on-line upon free registration at publication website.
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For a description of what is all about, without having to register, please read Daniel Gilbert.
the Social Contract is the sole legitimiser of the existence of a state. Therefore the establishment of a social contract between a European state and a European Volk[2] is the absolute requirement for the practical abolition of nation-states in a major part of the Europe.
[1] Natural monopolies providing cheap and efficient supply of goods required for all activities (such as EDF) are everyday manifestation of the social contract. [2] Hence the need for many politicians to avoid the creation of a european citizenship.
the solution for eliminating Nations is making the social contract unnecessary.
But not even that really. As I said, I am an anti-nationalist. I wouldn't want to live in newly created ethnic-national states. And be aware that I am talking with the assumption that "I would be a Bosnian Serb", rather than prescribing anything for anyone other than me. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
No, that was not in the meantime, but after Bosnian Serb forces forced out Muslims and Croats from their areas. (Also after Croatian Serb forces forced out Croats from their areas.) I have to correct that even if I agree that there were crimes on all sides.
AND WEST GAVE THIS RIGHT TO ALL OF THE OTHERS IN EX-YU
I did and do not agree with the West's support for the creation of Croatia the way they did, so I won't accept that as tit-for-tat justification for Bosnian and Croatian Serb claims, either. Two wrongs don't make one right.
...states on Balkan were always made by war
That's my point. Therefore I oppose the creation of any new micro-ethnic-state in onetime Yugoslavia. Be them Kosovo or RSK. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
While we're at it, vbo isn't a Bosnian Serb either. I don't think any of could be sure of how we would have reacted had we been living in Bosnia in the mid-90's, or had we been Bosnian Serbs living there or elsewhere.
I can argue until I'm red in the face about what I would do or feel if I were, say, a Basque speaker in Navarra, but I am neither a Basque speaker nor have I ever lived in Navarra. We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
I am again reminded of the Bosnian hippie hitch-hiker, who told of having been a hippie before the war and after, but a soldier in-between, and will turn an emigrant joining friends in Paris if things blow up again, which he expected as soon as foreign troops pull out (but this was a decade ago). *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
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