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You are playing with words.

You asked:

Are they different from you and me?

You and me are clearly different. (If I was a Serbian in Bosnia, I would NOT demand independence as soon as possible.) Don't you think members of any society can be just as different?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand now. You were always only considering your personal view. And only your.

You are taking refuge in your individuality.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are denying Serbians' individuality.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. That is not the point. The original point was: many among the many will not think as you do.

You should try to understand my words. I try to understand yours.

that is why I understand now that my choice of words was denying YOU your individuality (not the Serbians). But it wasn't meant to be literal. After all, I know that you are an individual. I know more of what you say than many people you know.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The original point was: many among the many will not think as you do.

If that was the point, you made it very badly. You asked us if anyone would disagree. That's categoric, not about majorities. What's more, it seems to be calling for sympathy and agreement. In light of your "taking refuge" comment, I also sense disdain for opinions other than spiteful nationalist.

But, now understanding your words, I do agree that a majority will feel like that. It is just this dynamics I fear.

I don't know where you come to this issue, but for me it is too close to home. I lived in what became Croatia, I saw it before, and I saw it after, including the ethnic-cleansed parts. And the damage in the heads, there is say the Croatian ship-boy I talked to, and asked about the ethnic cleansings, and he would justify it with the evils done by the JNA and the "Republic".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad that you understand my words. As for my feelings, well, conversations by text are very bad to transmit feelings.

What we have produced along his thread was an escalade. "disdain" comes after "refuge" which comes after "y" which comes after "x" which ... which ...

In the British Navy of old, as punishment, a number of sailors used to be tied to a wheel, and each given a whip, to beat in the back of the man in front. What started with minor slashes ended always in violent whipping. Because people:

1- underestimate the pain the other person feels (a 40% difference, it is said)
2 -tend to forget why the other fellow reacted faster than the reason we beated on him

It is suggested that the reasons for that are respectively:
1- our sensors of pain detect only our pain
2 -our apparatus of reasoning can store more easily our reasons than other's.

I think we can agree that nationhood is a whip ready to fall on the back of every man, and the Balkans are a giant wheel amongst many.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
findmeaDoorIntoSummer:
In the British Navy of old, as punishment, a number of sailors used to be tied to a wheel, and each given a whip, to beat in the back of the man in front. What started with minor slashes ended always in violent whipping. Because people:

Reference?  There are a number of stupidly violent punishments  administered by the Royal Navy in the past. but that one I've never heard of.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am having difficulty in finding a reference. the torture was described to me in a conversation, not read in a book or article.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't find any reference to it in Torture and democracy either.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 08:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, forget the torture. The modern day experiment from which the 40% figure is derived is:

Two Eyes for an Eye: The Neuroscience of Force Escalation. Sukhwinder S. Shergill, Paul M. Bays Chris D. Frith, Daniel M. Wolpert.
Science 11 July 2003:
Vol. 301. no. 5630, p. 187

a summary is available on-line upon free registration at publication website.

--------

For a description of what is all about, without having to register, please read Daniel Gilbert.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:33:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The exchange of words was rather painfull, at least to me. I cannot speak about you. However, a frank exchange of words open many issues, and that opening is interesting.
----------------
How can one believe that nationhood is a valid concept in Europa 2008 A.D.?

the Social Contract is the sole legitimiser of the existence of a state.
Therefore the establishment of a social contract between a European state and a European Volk[2] is the absolute requirement for the practical abolition of nation-states in a major part of the Europe.

[1] Natural monopolies providing cheap and efficient supply of goods required for all activities (such as EDF) are everyday manifestation of the social contract.
[2] Hence the need for many politicians to avoid the creation of a european citizenship.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(forgot to say it clear) this solution for eliminating the existing countries of EU is making the EU itself a bigger country.

the solution for eliminating Nations is making the social contract unnecessary.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:03:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the social contract about nations or about states?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Refuge".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
May I ask why you WOULDN'T demand independence? They are not happy there in the false state of Bosnia and Hercegovina , they never wanted to be part of that "state", they fought war and died  to brake from Bosnia & Hercegovina and they were forced to stay there...what else is needed as an argument for you?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What argument? Maybe a nation state created without ethnic cleansing and suppression of remaining minorities.

But not even that really. As I said, I am an anti-nationalist. I wouldn't want to live in newly created ethnic-national states. And be aware that I am talking with the assumption that "I would be a Bosnian Serb", rather than prescribing anything for anyone other than me.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
Maybe a nation state created without ethnic cleansing and suppression of remaining minorities.
----------
That was not an option for Serbs in Bosnia unfortunately. You may remember that war in Croatia erupted previously and it was obvious that everyone is armed and Bosnian parliament proclaimed independence without Serbs. This triggered war.
In the main time while Serbs were forced out of Croatia  there was not mass exodus of Croats, Muslims or even Albanians from Serbia. They still live in Serbia with "evil" Serbs.
I am not saying that there were no war crimes on Serbian side, don't get me wrong. There were crimes on all sides for those who want to see the truth. I am just saying that Serbs like others (AND WEST GAVE THIS RIGHT TO ALL OF THE OTHERS IN EX-YU) should have had  right to go independently from Croatia and Bosnia. There would be NO WAR at all if it was done. Interestingly how you people can't follow this logic. There WOULD BE NO WAR.
But who ever is serious knows that this was about geo- strategic aspect. Serbs didn't want to go under USA military and CIA...they didn't want USA military bases on their soil...and they were punished and still are punished.
So it's simply fairytale ...states on Balkan were always made by war...one way or another. There will be wars yet, you can be sure ...it's a historic fact.  


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the main time while Serbs were forced out of Croatia

No, that was not in the meantime, but after Bosnian Serb forces forced out Muslims and Croats from their areas. (Also after Croatian Serb forces forced out Croats from their areas.) I have to correct that even if I agree that there were crimes on all sides.

AND WEST GAVE THIS RIGHT TO ALL OF THE OTHERS IN EX-YU

I did and do not agree with the West's support for the creation of Croatia the way they did, so I won't accept that as tit-for-tat justification for Bosnian and Croatian Serb claims, either. Two wrongs don't make one right.

...states on Balkan were always made by war

That's my point. Therefore I oppose the creation of any new micro-ethnic-state in onetime Yugoslavia. Be them Kosovo or RSK.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you're not a Bosnian Serb - you're a Hungarian with family ties in Slovakia and having lived in Germany and Croatia among other places.

While we're at it, vbo isn't a Bosnian Serb either. I don't think any of could be sure of how we would have reacted had we been living in Bosnia in the mid-90's, or had we been Bosnian Serbs living there or elsewhere.

I can argue until I'm red in the face about what I would do or feel if I were, say, a Basque speaker in Navarra, but I am neither a Basque speaker nor have I ever lived in Navarra.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, probably most of those actual Bosnian Serbs who would have thought like me here in my own reality have emigrated already.

I am again reminded of the Bosnian hippie hitch-hiker, who told of having been a hippie before the war and after, but a soldier in-between, and will turn an emigrant joining friends in Paris if things blow up again, which he expected as soon as foreign troops pull out (but this was a decade ago).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:00:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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