Kosovo declares independence | 190 comments (189 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

If I was a Serbian in Bosnia, I would demand independence as soon as possible. If I were a Serbian in Serbia, I would support and facilitate it.

Wouldn't any of us do the same thing?

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 4)

No. I would slam my head into the wall instead or emigrate.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

There's only one way the Bosnian Serbs secede, and that's if the Albanians run roughshod over Mitrovica and the north. 2,000 EU police would not be able to stop it. If that happens, the Serbs would claim they do not feel safe in the Bosnian protectorate.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:28:22 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

?? It sounds like you're confusing Bosnia with Kosovo. Mitrovica is in Kosovo, in its northern part. Those are Kosovo Serbs. The Bosnian Serbs who want to secede are in Republika Srpska, in Bosnia and Hercegovina.

And if you're not confusing the two, even if there's a lot of anti-Serb violence in northern Kosovo, RS would just have to watch their border with Kosovo. I just can't see Kosovo Albanians invading Bosnia.... As far as I know, the claims for secession in RS are based more on just getting away, rather than any threats of violence from the Federation side. Have there even been any threats from the Federation? My understanding was that the tensions being reported in Bosnia now are more politicians hissing at each other than anything else.

Am I the only one who keeps thinking of Star Trek when discussing Bosnia?

by lychee on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

No, I don't have them confused.

The similarity is all about the performance of so-called peace-keeping troops.

I know the Bosnians are integrated better, but for the long haul, the creation of ethnically pure states all around Bosnia will eventually cause that alliance to split apart. The example of Mitrovica will be powerful because it will show that the EU and the West are incapable of protection. Look at Cyprus. NATO will not move militarily unless it suits its interest.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Oh, so you were talking about using perceived fear as an excuse to secede, rather than real threats. Now I understand your post.

At this point, I just want whatever happens to be as peaceful as possible, be it Mitrovica staying with Kosovo, seceding and rejoining Serbia, etc.

by lychee on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:46:54 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Quote:
As far as I know, the claims for secession in RS are based more on just getting away, rather than any threats of violence from the Federation side.
---------
C'mon please don't try to sell this stupid story where USA generously helped Albanians just because of the treats from "federation"...none here is that naive. Let alone that Albanians wouldn't dare to try anything if USA didn't arm and trained them militarily and promised them to bombard Serbia if necessary.
Bosnian Serbs now have legitimate right to proclaim independence and not just Bosnian Serbs. Who ever is not happy with in borders now have right to go. Welcome to a new "free" world. Bosnian Serbs have not just right they are properly organized in any way to do it cause they luckily never took seriously "state" of Bosnia and Hercegovina.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:09:42 AM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

C'mon please don't try to sell this stupid story where USA generously helped Albanians just because of the treats from "federation"

Huh?? What are you talking about? As far as I know, the Federation (you know, the other entity in BiH) never threatened the Albanians.

Upstate NY's point was that if troops can't protect Serbs in Northern Kosovo, then RS might claim that they need to secede from BiH because of some imagined "threat" from the Federation side. I had originally misunderstood him/her and thought his/her post was talking about actual threats having been made by one BiH entity toward the other. Upstate NY explained a little more and cleared it up. So I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm trying to "sell" a story that Bosnia was threatening Albanians.

by lychee on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:30:59 AM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Huh this is even better. Total misunderstanding. I am sorry I misunderstand you.
And things are actually very simple under the surface. Do not mix conflict in Bosnia and H. and conflict in Serbia in any way. These things are not comparable at all.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

What will the EU do if the Albanians run roughshod over 2,000 EU police?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:18:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

Would they need to run roughshod over them? I'm a bit fuzzy on my Balkan geography, but how big an area are those 2000 peacekeepers supposed to patrol? How many people?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:27:39 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

what does that mean?

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 04:23:54 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

It means I am not a natinalist and would find another explosion of nationalism around me suffocating, not contagious.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

Is not the recognition of the necessity of creating a new country the ultimate manifestation of nationalism?

And why, you, who were so quick to give a sanguine response to my post, should expect than Serbians humbly bow their heads? Are they different from you and me?

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:32:16 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

You are turning my words and our exchange upside down.

I don't expect anything from "Serbians". You asked if any of us would not do the same thing, and I said I would not do the same thing. (And unlike you, I don't think all individuals included under "Serbians" think the same way.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:37:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

Yes, I am turning your argument upside done. Since the transformed argument is mine - I don't pretend it is yours -, there is no dishonesty.

It is you who are putting words into my mouth: by Serbians, or Serbs, i designate the Serbian, or Serb, societies. Individuals organised around symbols. Like we, at ET.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:51:07 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

You are playing with words.

You asked:

Are they different from you and me?

You and me are clearly different. (If I was a Serbian in Bosnia, I would NOT demand independence as soon as possible.) Don't you think members of any society can be just as different?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

I understand now. You were always only considering your personal view. And only your.

You are taking refuge in your individuality.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

You are denying Serbians' individuality.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

No. That is not the point. The original point was: many among the many will not think as you do.

You should try to understand my words. I try to understand yours.

that is why I understand now that my choice of words was denying YOU your individuality (not the Serbians). But it wasn't meant to be literal. After all, I know that you are an individual. I know more of what you say than many people you know.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

The original point was: many among the many will not think as you do.

If that was the point, you made it very badly. You asked us if anyone would disagree. That's categoric, not about majorities. What's more, it seems to be calling for sympathy and agreement. In light of your "taking refuge" comment, I also sense disdain for opinions other than spiteful nationalist.

But, now understanding your words, I do agree that a majority will feel like that. It is just this dynamics I fear.

I don't know where you come to this issue, but for me it is too close to home. I lived in what became Croatia, I saw it before, and I saw it after, including the ethnic-cleansed parts. And the damage in the heads, there is say the Croatian ship-boy I talked to, and asked about the ethnic cleansings, and he would justify it with the evils done by the JNA and the "Republic".

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

I'm glad that you understand my words. As for my feelings, well, conversations by text are very bad to transmit feelings.

What we have produced along his thread was an escalade. "disdain" comes after "refuge" which comes after "y" which comes after "x" which ... which ...

In the British Navy of old, as punishment, a number of sailors used to be tied to a wheel, and each given a whip, to beat in the back of the man in front. What started with minor slashes ended always in violent whipping. Because people:

1- underestimate the pain the other person feels (a 40% difference, it is said)
2 -tend to forget why the other fellow reacted faster than the reason we beated on him

It is suggested that the reasons for that are respectively:
1- our sensors of pain detect only our pain
2 -our apparatus of reasoning can store more easily our reasons than other's.

I think we can agree that nationhood is a whip ready to fall on the back of every man, and the Balkans are a giant wheel amongst many.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

findmeaDoorIntoSummer:

In the British Navy of old, as punishment, a number of sailors used to be tied to a wheel, and each given a whip, to beat in the back of the man in front. What started with minor slashes ended always in violent whipping. Because people:

Reference? There are a number of stupidly violent punishments administered by the Royal Navy in the past. but that one I've never heard of.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

I am having difficulty in finding a reference. the torture was described to me in a conversation, not read in a book or article.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Can't find any reference to it in Torture and democracy either.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 08:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

well, forget the torture. The modern day experiment from which the 40% figure is derived is:

Two Eyes for an Eye: The Neuroscience of Force Escalation. Sukhwinder S. Shergill, Paul M. Bays Chris D. Frith, Daniel M. Wolpert.
Science 11 July 2003:
Vol. 301. no. 5630, p. 187

a summary is available on-line upon free registration at publication website.

--------

For a description of what is all about, without having to register, please read Daniel Gilbert.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:33:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

The exchange of words was rather painfull, at least to me. I cannot speak about you. However, a frank exchange of words open many issues, and that opening is interesting.
----------------
How can one believe that nationhood is a valid concept in Europa 2008 A.D.?

the Social Contract is the sole legitimiser of the existence of a state.
Therefore the establishment of a social contract between a European state and a European Volk[2] is the absolute requirement for the practical abolition of nation-states in a major part of the Europe.

[1] Natural monopolies providing cheap and efficient supply of goods required for all activities (such as EDF) are everyday manifestation of the social contract.
[2] Hence the need for many politicians to avoid the creation of a european citizenship.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

(forgot to say it clear) this solution for eliminating the existing countries of EU is making the EU itself a bigger country.

the solution for eliminating Nations is making the social contract unnecessary.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:03:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Is the social contract about nations or about states?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:21:03 AM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

"Refuge".

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

May I ask why you WOULDN'T demand independence? They are not happy there in the false state of Bosnia and Hercegovina , they never wanted to be part of that "state", they fought war and died to brake from Bosnia & Hercegovina and they were forced to stay there...what else is needed as an argument for you?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

What argument? Maybe a nation state created without ethnic cleansing and suppression of remaining minorities.

But not even that really. As I said, I am an anti-nationalist. I wouldn't want to live in newly created ethnic-national states. And be aware that I am talking with the assumption that "I would be a Bosnian Serb", rather than prescribing anything for anyone other than me.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Quote:
Maybe a nation state created without ethnic cleansing and suppression of remaining minorities.
----------
That was not an option for Serbs in Bosnia unfortunately. You may remember that war in Croatia erupted previously and it was obvious that everyone is armed and Bosnian parliament proclaimed independence without Serbs. This triggered war.
In the main time while Serbs were forced out of Croatia there was not mass exodus of Croats, Muslims or even Albanians from Serbia. They still live in Serbia with "evil" Serbs.
I am not saying that there were no war crimes on Serbian side, don't get me wrong. There were crimes on all sides for those who want to see the truth. I am just saying that Serbs like others (AND WEST GAVE THIS RIGHT TO ALL OF THE OTHERS IN EX-YU) should have had right to go independently from Croatia and Bosnia. There would be NO WAR at all if it was done. Interestingly how you people can't follow this logic. There WOULD BE NO WAR.
But who ever is serious knows that this was about geo- strategic aspect. Serbs didn't want to go under USA military and CIA...they didn't want USA military bases on their soil...and they were punished and still are punished.
So it's simply fairytale ...states on Balkan were always made by war...one way or another. There will be wars yet, you can be sure ...it's a historic fact.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:06:26 AM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

In the main time while Serbs were forced out of Croatia

No, that was not in the meantime, but after Bosnian Serb forces forced out Muslims and Croats from their areas. (Also after Croatian Serb forces forced out Croats from their areas.) I have to correct that even if I agree that there were crimes on all sides.

AND WEST GAVE THIS RIGHT TO ALL OF THE OTHERS IN EX-YU

I did and do not agree with the West's support for the creation of Croatia the way they did, so I won't accept that as tit-for-tat justification for Bosnian and Croatian Serb claims, either. Two wrongs don't make one right.

...states on Balkan were always made by war

That's my point. Therefore I oppose the creation of any new micro-ethnic-state in onetime Yugoslavia. Be them Kosovo or RSK.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

But you're not a Bosnian Serb - you're a Hungarian with family ties in Slovakia and having lived in Germany and Croatia among other places.

While we're at it, vbo isn't a Bosnian Serb either. I don't think any of could be sure of how we would have reacted had we been living in Bosnia in the mid-90's, or had we been Bosnian Serbs living there or elsewhere.

I can argue until I'm red in the face about what I would do or feel if I were, say, a Basque speaker in Navarra, but I am neither a Basque speaker nor have I ever lived in Navarra.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:27:44 AM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Well, probably most of those actual Bosnian Serbs who would have thought like me here in my own reality have emigrated already.

I am again reminded of the Bosnian hippie hitch-hiker, who told of having been a hippie before the war and after, but a soldier in-between, and will turn an emigrant joining friends in Paris if things blow up again, which he expected as soon as foreign troops pull out (but this was a decade ago).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:00:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Have you been in an analogous situation of having to choose whether to humbly bow your head?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 3)

No. My fear, and I don't know if this is something that could really happen, but it just occurred to me and is alarming me, is that RS independence could potentially destabilize Croatia, again, if not from within, from those without who might be looking to take Krajina/Eastern Slavonia back. Supporting RS independence and absorbing it into Serbia would embolden the Radicals and anyone who still believes in creating "Greater Serbia," IMHO.

by lychee on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:26:16 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

I thought the Serbs were completely ethnically cleansed from the Krajina? Did they somehow come back?

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:29:05 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 4)

Some did come back, and IIRC Slavonia wasn't as completely cleansed as Western Krajina.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

Serbs still live in Croatia. What the exact breakdown/percent in each area is or how many who were pushed out/who fled have returned to their homes, I don't know.

Remember though, I said if not from within, from without. My fear is that some who were either pushed out and who are highly nationalist, or who have never been there but support the idea of GS, could become emboldened by a declaration of independence from RS.

by lychee on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:38:49 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

I'd imagine a quid pro quo instead. It's the same quid pro quo of Dayton. Milosevic ordered a standown before Operation Storm, essentially selling the Krajina Serbs for the Dayton plan and the Bosnian Serbs. An agreement which looked very much like the breakdown of Vance-Owen.

I'd bet the Serbs would have sold Kosovo yesterday in a land swap elsewhere.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

Maybe they could have even done it if they could keep the areas around Mitrovica.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:31:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

Listen, support a movement for the independence of Serbs in Bosnia is not necessarily trying another war.
It is just a political action.

Everyone knows there was a war there. Their inhabitants first of all. Who would want a war? They?

This declaration of independence is just another play in a long game.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 04:42:38 PM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Oh stop that false story about "Great Serbia".For your information Serbia seems to be smaller then ever nowadays...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Again, why are you accusing me of telling stories, this time about "Greater Serbia"? There are still people who believe it should exist (and I'm not one of them, by the way); I said if RS secedes from BiH, Serbia should not absorb them as those who have this idea of GS in their heads could take that as permission to try to grab Krajina/Eastern Slavonia, thus starting up yet another war.

by lychee on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:37:03 AM EST
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Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

Kosovo will in not so distant future be a part of Great Albania. How do you feel about that?
And about Krajina/Eastern Slavonia, ETHNIC CLEANSING HAS BEEN FINISHED THERE BY CROATIA and her allies so you don't have to worry. There are no Serbs there to fight.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 2)

And Greater Romania, and Greater Hungaria, and Greater Bulgaria, and...

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 1)

I understand what you both mean. Theoretically who would want pure national state (even if it's possible)? But most of European states are national states with few minorities so reality is something else comparing to what we may wish for.
Even bloody USA and Australia are trying to make "nation" and keep telling their citizens they should forget where they are coming from. This is not an ideal world...not at all...And you just made one more national "state"...Kosovo. So how is this different from what Serbs wanted for them selves? And also Serbs still want Kosovo in their borders together with Albanian population. Except under Milosevic Albanians had more rights in Serbia then many minorities have in Europe on this day...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

Milosevic did suppress the autonomy of Kosovo and Vojvodina, if I remember correctly.

On the rest, I can only say what I said in another comment: that way lies madness. Weĺl soon be commemorating the 100th anniversary of WWI and the disintegration of Austria-Hungary, and the successor states seem to still be itching to ethnically cleanse their border regions and grab some land if they can in the process. They even had pretty good multinational and multiethnic states going in Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia but they broke them up. And I'm supposed to feel responsible for that dynamic?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (none / 0)

Despite the caveats in my other comments, I wouldn't, just like DoDo. That way lies madness.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Kosovo declares independence | 190 comments (189 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

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