Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
To be honest even now the WW mode is looking very unlikely, that and the ZZ mode look like they might be squeezed into low probability and effectively ruled out of the running. If it is a standard model Higgs, it looks like it'll be ~114-125.
by darrkespur on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 03:22:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you elaborate?

And what if the standard model Higgs isn't found? What are the alternatives?

Once in a graduate course the professor mentioned in passing that the standard model without a symmetry-breaking sector violates unitarity at about 1TeV, so there has to be some new phenomenon, be it the Higgs or something else, before that energy is reached. What is there to that?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I once met a former physicists turned ERP consultant at IBM, who also told me that there was a small energy band between LEP and LHC, that was actually unreachable in LHC (too low for the beam as designed), and there was a tiny chance the Higgs had a mass that would make the LHC miss the finding (but then some boosted linear accelerators should be able to find first)

Pierre
by Pierre on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That rings a bell, too.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:39:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oops.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 05:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think a linear collider will be build any time soon. There is one country in the world which said it would pay a part of it, but likely only a small part and that is Germany, when the gov cancelled a smaller version for DESY Hamburg.

The US recently has cutted financing of R&D. And what was the reason?
The democrats were angry because Bush has vetoed some of their pet projects. As a revenge they cutted spending on some of Bush's pet projects.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 05:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are existing infrastructures like SLAC which keep being upgraded in part with private funding, they are not entirely out of the race.

Pierre
by Pierre on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 05:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahhh, but you are speaking of the ILC, a superconducting juggernaut of some 50km which can still only reach the puny collision energy of 0.5TeV. Why go for such a thing when the much more attractive possibility of CLIC exist? A delicious 3TeV of electron-positron collisions at ultra high luminocity. No troublesome and gradient limiting superconductive cavities either. With 100MV/m we are far above the theoretical limitations of the enemy competition. First beam? Around 2023, optimistically.

(Me? Biased? Naaahhh...)

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 08:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh dear, what can the matter be?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 08:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So making the 2023 to an 2035 for real operation, when applying the history of the LHC.
And ILC technology is in operation already, while CLIC needs a lot of additional R&D. DESY's XFEL is operated with cavities good enough for an ILC.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 08:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Basically they have to rule out very masses by proving that they can't see them. experiments at LEP and the Tevatron have put the mass limits between 114 and ~200Gev.

All the standard model higgs (where it's just a higgs boson with no other weird physics) decay into two particles. It depends on the mass of the higgs what these decays are - for instance i'm studying 165Gev which is roughly 2 times the W mass, so in this region this is by far the most likely decay.

So far they've not seen this above the background and the more data they have, the more they can rule it out. The LHC will provide more data at the low (~114) region, where the main decays are b/bbar quarks, photons, tau lepton, c/cbar quarks and two gluons. All of these occur anyway in the detector so it's hard to spot - which is why there has been the least work in this region so far, and why ruling out the less likely WW and ZZ decays has been easier. Although it's the decay that occurs the least, the photon decay is the easiest to spot.

If they don't find the Higgs at any of these energies, it means it's not just a standard model one - i.e. it behaves not just by the laws we already know, but by new physics we've never seen. Supersymmetry and Extra Dimensions are two of the more prominent theories why the Higgs may not be in the standard model region.

by darrkespur on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's true. But it is even better. Unless the Higgs has pretty much exactly 116 GeV, so called loop corrections will destroy the model once more, if there are not more particles to shield these effect. As this is a kind of fine tuning people are not heavy with it, there are basically two classes of models introducing new particles.

The one is supersymmetry. This gives to each particle we already know a heavier superpartner, which has the property to cancel the contribution of its original particle in these loops (for physicists not connected to the matter, it makes a boson partner for every fermion and vice versa. In Feynman diagramms fermions come in with a negative sign, bosons with a positive, so the superpartners cancel their normal partners). The proposed particle I wrote in the diary to catlyse fusion is the stau, the superpartner of an even much heavier partner of the electron than the muon. In some parameter space it can be realively long living.

The other is some variation of 'techni color' or 'warped extra dimensions'. This is in general the more 'natural' solution of the problem, but even more than in the case of supersymmetry one would have expected to find deviations of the standard model about 20 years ago.

The good things about the LHC is, that we really enter the region in which these models have to exist, if they should help to solve any problem.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 05:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the super-particle is OPPOSITE--boson for fermion, fermion for boson--then I do not understand how a stau particle--which would be a boson, right?--could replace an electron (a fermion) in a deuterium atom.  

Unless a tau particle is a boson, which would mean I know even less than i thought.  Isn't the tau a fermion like the electron?  

Or is Pauli exclusion irrelevant?  Higher order elements could then get interesting:  Imagine Li with all three (-) particles sitting in the S1 shell.  

But anyway, which is it?  I AM confused.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 03:38:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Any negatively charged particle will do. You can even use an anti-proton. Lifetimes may be rather short, however.
Exotic atoms cast light on fundamental questions - CERN Courier
The Paul Scherrer Institut in Villigen has investigated pionic hydrogen (π--p) and deuterium (π--d), and DAFNE in Frascati has investigated their kaonic counterparts. Other no-less-important species include kaonic and antiprotonic helium, which have been studied at the Japanese High Energy Accelerator Research Organization (KEK) and CERN, and yet another exotic variety is formed by the non-baryonic π+- π-(pionium) and πK atoms. Finally, the antihydrogen atom, pbar-e+, which CERN has copiously produced, is in a class of its own owing to its importance for testing the CPT theorem to extremely high precision.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 11:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose Pauli exclusion is irrelevant since we're talking about Hydrogen. But, in addition, having light bosons filling the orbitals would mean that Pauli exclusion doesn't contribute an "exchange energy" to the interaction between various hydrogen atoms, and so you get the benefit not only of smaller atomic radius but also of the ability of the atoms to actually overlap significantly.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 11:15:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean heavy bosons.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:14:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
That's true. But it is even better. Unless the Higgs has pretty much exactly 116 GeV, so called loop corrections will destroy the model once more, if there are not more particles to shield these effect. As this is a kind of fine tuning people are not heavy with it, there are basically two classes of models introducing new particles.
Is that "kind of fine tuning" a fixed point of the renormalization group flow? Because, in that case, there's nothing particularly bothersome about the fine tuning: it's an internally dynamically-determined parameter of the model, not an externally finely-tuned parameter.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 11:27:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think so. I'm an experimentalist, but its really about the exact Higgs mass, which should be a free parameter in the standard model, otherwise we could stop searching in a range, and it is used by about every theorist who wants to endorse Susy, so it should be a real effect.

Just as an update for you what are the actual issue, why else we believe standard model (SM) is incomplete.

Dark matter exists:

I've seen the picture already elsewhere, but it is from here. This are two galaxies flying through each other. The reddish part are Xrays caused by interaction of the galactic gas. The blue is, where the mass of the galaxies is, detected by gravitational lensing. So it is clear, that most mass in the galaxies is not interacting hadronically or electromagnetic.
In principle this matter has to interact only through gravitation and weak interaction is optional, but as weak interacting particles would have decoupled in the BigBang at pretty much the point that would explain todays dark matter, there is hope, that we can find it in colliders and that it is e.g. the lightest super symmetric particle, which is stable, when assuming supersymmetry to be conserved.

Another thing which the SM has problems to explain are neutrino masses, and why they are so small, though they have mass. (Cosmological structure formation indicates, that dark matter is non-relativistic, so much heavier than neutrinos, which don't contribute a lot). We think they have mass, because oscillation from one flavour into another is detected. Several experiments try to find out more about the mass and the (CKM-like) mixing matrix.

It is not clear by which mechanism the SM would create an excess of matter over antimatter in the Universe as it is seen. There are ideas for such processes and even in the SM one can explain some assymmetry, but only about 10^(-5) of the observed effect. More CP violating phases are needed. Colliders, maybe more the lower energy B fabrics (Japan plans a new one) may help to find it.

Fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) and mesurements of the speed of galxies very far away indicate that most of the mass in the universe is dark energy

Dark energy has a negative pressure (which I personally find mind-boggling) and increases the speed of expansion of the universe. It is not clear if this is just a cosmological constant as once introduced by Einstein to make his formulas consistent with a static universe, or if it is a dynamical thing. One hopes to find out more with better obersertion of the CMBR. It could be, that an extremely prices measurement could find a shifting coppling constant alpha, if it is a dynamical thing.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 05:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Higgs mass

Okay, let me get this straight: if the Standard Model Higgs is only renormalizable for a particular choice of the Higgs' mass, this is not considered a prediction but a flaw of the model. However, if bosonic strings can only be made consistent in 26 dimensions, or superstrings in 11 dimensions and with the help of supersymmetry these thing for which there is zero empirical evidence are considered predictions of string theory and not flaws. Moreover, were a supersymmetric particle discovered, this would be considered evidence of string theory even though supersymmetry doesn't require string theory. You said it right, though:

the exact Higgs mass ... should be a free parameter in the standard model, otherwise we could stop searching in a range, and it is used by about every theorist who wants to endorse Susy, so it should be a real effect.
Since you're an experimentalist I hope you won't take the above personally, but anyway I'll offer you a bet that the Higgs will be found at 116 GeV.
Martin:
Unless the Higgs has pretty much exactly 116 GeV, so called loop corrections will destroy the model once more, if there are not more particles to shield these effect.

Dark Energy

As for Dark energy, I'm going to go with the Cosmological constant until there is any evidence to the contrary. As far as I know, even "exotic matter" can't produce a "negative pressure" stress-energy tensor.

Neutrino Mass

I don't consider throwing in a one (or several) right-handed neutrinos and a KCB mixing matrix a challenge to the Standard Model. "Explaining" the masses of the various particles is a challenge, but as far as I can tell there's no candidate for a theory that does that. [No, String Theory is not it: apart from having a proliferation of vacua, the only way they can get a low-energy spectrum of particles is by assuming they all have zero mass, nobody has a mechanism for supersymmetry breaking and the supersymmetry breaking scale just introduces a whole bunch of new parameters to explain.]

Dark Matter

My guess is as good as any other - but if dark matter only interacts gravitationally it won't be seen at the LHC. Actually, the quantum numbers match a "superheavy right-handed neutrino" too...

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:13:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I won't bet against you. Indirect experimental evidence has its center value below the LEP limit, which is 114. 116 GeV really looks for the moment to be the best guess even without the renormalization argument.

I don't assume string theory to be a physical theory at all, as they can always shift their parameters in a way, that any (non)observation is explained.
My boss completely dislikes Susy, but we have another prof who is now working since decades to prove it (without success).

It may well be, that the LHC finds only a Higgs (and only after quite a long time of running, when it is so low) and nothing else. I'm not at all sure, there is something else, although there are some less compelling hints. However, Susy and some other models should really be dead, if LHC finds nothing.
I only wanted to give you an overview over the reasons why people are searching at all for other things and not simply sit down and say it is not worth to try, because anyhow nothing else than a complete SM can be expected.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 08:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, it is definitely worth a try, I never implied otherwise. In fact, given the accesibility of the energy range and the necessarily ad-hoc nature of the various models of the Higgs sector, it would be unforgivable not to try.

If the SM Higgs is found, with no evidence of physics beyond the SM below 1TeV (including "corrections" due to physics at higher energies), I think it will be safe to say that theoretical high energy physics will have "died of success". There would be no strong case for higher-energy accelerators, leaving aside how difficult it would be to build something to probe the 10TeV range.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 09:44:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One needs something to explain masses, basically a scalar field. There are some theories biulding the scalar field up as a composite of vector fields, but its rather weird.

I think darrkespur was referring to non-standard model Higgses. But as explained elsewhere on the comment section, if the Higgs isn't in the low mass region, there have to be more particles to prevent other problems making the theory inconsistent.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 05:56:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series