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Brilliant, techno.

I'm not sure exactly what governs the beauty of a spire - I guess to some extent it's in the eye of the beholder, but no doubt ratios and geometries enter into it.

Here's my favourite...



"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 07:33:05 AM EST
Spires meant a visible center and focus to a village when all other village buildings would be max 2 level - pre-Industrial Revolution. Also it was a nice pointer for the sinners as to where they should be aiming to get to ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 09:26:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More then the "axis mundi" part, the higher the bells were, the further they would reach... :-)

The shift between the roman style to the gothic one, was more on the separation with "nature" and relationship to another plane ! (more of a political statement).

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 09:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Goodness, how lovely!

Our project is not nearly so grand.  You will notice that the spire of the 1894 building is much taller and more graceful than the 1862 version.  But that is part of the charm of the 1862 effort--it was built by amateurs.  These folks were barely off the boat, the USA Civil War was raging, the new land had a harsh climate with a short growing season and farming required new methods, few of the settlers spoke English, etc.  Ole Rolvaag wrote a book about these settlers called Giants in the Earth.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 09:51:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's Salisbury, isn't it?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 11:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your starter for 10.....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 11:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Salisbury spire is glorious, but not quite perfect in its engineering.  The corner supports are visibly bent under the strain, and I think there's a false ceiling too, hiding some additional retrospective strengthening.

However, the only one that was taller was Lincoln-and that did fall down.  There's something rather heroic about the way these builders pushed their craft to the limits, as evidenced by some of the corrections they had to make later.

Another example, though not of a spire, is the West Front of Peterborough Cathedral.

If you think the porch looks like an afterthought, you'd be right.  From the right angle, you can see quite clearly that it's propping the whole thing up.

by Sassafras on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 12:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That idea pops its head up every now and then. The porch itself is a raised Library, and is not in to support the building. there are victorian Iron rods pushed through the face to supposedly support the front which you can't quite see in that picture, but a recent investigation by structural engineers came to the conclusion that the west front was deliberatly built with a very slight lean outwards to make it look more impressive to people standing at the base of the front.

If I remember right, an extended tower in the middle did collapse, but that's a vague memory from 20 years ago and I could be thinking about another cathedral.

If you ever get the chance get to the top of the center tower there.  the view to the east is fairly spectacular out across the fens.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 12:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's visibly bent...and I'm sure it was cathedral literature I got this from.  It might even say so on the noticeboard outside.

Still, I did give up on the idea of ex cathedra being infallible a long time ago...  :)

by Sassafras on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 01:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is something that has been put out for over 100 years, but every time that structural experts go up there they always come back with the same answer, that the front is stable  and appears to have been built like that.  Knowing them they probably still are using the same Literature from the 70's.

looking in various places there is the story that the porch was built as support, but I'm sure I was told that it isn't true.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 01:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Current "conventional wisdom", as evidenced by the
cathedral website
says it was built to prop up the portico.

However, I have a feeling I first saw this on the (sufficiently antique to warrant its own restoration) information board on the cathedral greens, and it's entirely possible that a mistake on there could simply have been endlessly repeated.

Interesting...

by Sassafras on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 01:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have a view of the porch of the building from another angle

(my head is between the fourth and fifth heads in the front row on the left hand side)


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 03:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does this mean you know how to sing liturgical music?

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"
by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 03:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In great detail.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 03:42:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
where's the zoutube?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 04:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd have to visit my father to get it from vinyl

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 06:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too.  I was in choirs until I was 27--the last being the Minnesota Bach Society.  A good Lute believes that there may not be a god, but if there is, Bach was his official composer ;-)

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"
by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 06:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm....

I've been out this evening, but I've traced the porch-holding-up-the-West-Front argument back as far as 1859:

The porch ...materially injures the uniform effect of the front; but its insertion seems to have been rather a question of necessity than of taste. It was probably erected "as an abutment against the west front, which, by a bulging outward of the pillars or a settlement of the foundations, was falling forward toward the west. It was, in fact, overweighted by the stone spires and pinnacles of the flanking towers, which those structures, having no proper buttresses, were ill adapted to bear. The construction of this elegant little edifice is extremely scientific, especially in the manner in which the thrust is distributed through the medium of the side turrets, so as to fall upon the buttresses in front. These turrets, being erected against one side of the triangular columns, on the right and the left hand, support them in two directions at once, viz. from collapsing towards each other, and from falling forward. The latter pressure is thrown wholly upon the buttresses in front, which project seven feet beyond the base of the great pillars."

Handbook to the Cathedrals of England, 1862, quoting F. A. Paley, "Remarks on the Architecture of Peterborough Cathedral", 2nd Ed, 1859.

On the other hand, the definitive modern book seems to be An Architectural History of Peterborough Cathedral  by Lisa Reilly .  At a mere £165 on Amazon, I don't suppose I'll be buying it any time soon. However, it could be significant that, although every review and excerpt I've found mentions the porch, none has referred to its supposed structural function.

I wonder if the library has a copy....

by Sassafras on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 07:07:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to admit that my source is a half remembered conversation with my father, about a discussion he'd had with the Dioscesan architect. and a similarly  dimly remembered conversation with cathedral heirarchy at a meal 25 years ago.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 07:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You could well be right, though, because, apart from this out-of-print book, the level of (net) published comment since 1859 seems to consist of variants on "s'obvious, innit?"

And if you are, that would make this an interesting example of how good stories win out over boring facts.

And...cough...I might also...possibly...have emailed the cathedral architect to ask whether he thinks it's structural or not.

I wonder if he'll reply?  :)

by Sassafras on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 08:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if it was put in for structural reasons, that dosn't mean that it is necessarily structurally required. it might have been built, because it's obvious that it's needed.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 08:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My head hurts.  Can you run that by me again?  :)
by Sassafras on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 08:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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