Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
I think the idea of a co-operative empire is very good. However, despite being a strong europhile I think it has some way to go to demonstrate its committment to these goals.

Organisationally it is secretive and obviously careless with the cash. It is far too easily bent to the will of large corporate interests and strong national vetoes.

Each of these things may seem mild or even innocuous taken separately, but together you really shouldn't be surprised if it seems democratically unaccountable and distant, which only breeds  suspicion and, ultimately, resistance.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:08:09 PM EST
It what way is the EU secretive? Or careless with the cash for that matter?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Council with its closed meetings is certainly secretive. Though the common meme in British tabloids refers to the Commission and its supporting bureaucracy.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2008 at 06:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spot on, Helen!
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What you say is precisely what many of the Brits I know who are Europhiles say too. And these are that must be properly addressed to convince Eurosceptics to look at Europe in a different light.
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you can explain what she means. The EU - except at the council level, which consists of the national leaders - is, as I understand it, more transparent than almost all national governments.

Most of the problems with EU budgets are in the disbursement of funds by those national governments. Like the one responsible to a certain "Her Majesty".

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman, I agree with you that there is a certain amount of transparency at that level but this is not how Euro sceptics see it and since I'm not armed with documents containing financial data and what have you when visiting my British friends and relatives, it's very difficult to convince those that are already confirmed EU sceptics that transparency does exist in the EU. The thing is the issues that Eurosceptics and Europhobes raised must be addressed properly, publicly and as you know there is a huge tendency for British media to exacerbate this problem rather than clarify it.
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:30:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But then the problem isn't fundamentally in the EU. It's in the dishonesty of the debate in the UK.

It does not matter one whit what the EU does or how it reforms or improves if the debate in the UK is going to be based on lies, exaggerations and gross and wilful ignorance.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I say, gross and wifull ignorance tops the list followed by deliberate ommission of facts.
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
good points helen...

i think england's trauma from nearly losing WW2 prevents many english from trusting 'the continent' for anything but summer hideaways and a change of cuisine.

as time goes by, the old ones with the memories die off, but at this rate it'll take another couple of generations, especially with active sabotage from over the atlantic and murdoch moulding public opinion.

if america goes down, england may re-evaluate its loyalties... i can't see anything less shifting the incredible animosity some have there for europe, whipped up for decades by the yellow press.

as long as there are the likes of mandelson representing england, maybe many of the feelings are mutual.

what pisses most people off that i talk to about it is that england has a superiority complex and wants to have it both ways, in when convenient, and out when not. unsustainable, no matter how clever-clever brit pols play it...

whole hearted IN, or go play poodle, till the people see through the media looking glass and would show up for a yes-vote in referendum.

till then... what they offer seems mostly interference and subversion, fickle albion!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 04:07:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
as long as there are the likes of mandelson representing england(????), maybe many of the feelings are mutual.

representing england(????)

Hang on Melo, surely you are referring to Britain and not just England.

Good God! Tony Blair the poodle is not even English!

by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 08:27:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oops, i get so kornfused sometimes...

fractal identity syndrome!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 10:44:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series