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Nor do I know why or how a world that has "regressed" to a "tribal matrix" wouldn't be just as likely as today's to have militaries and wars.
I still don't know what ecosocialism would look like. You diary seems to be incomprehensible without actually going and reading the books you refer to.
I don't know what ecosocialism would look like, either, since it has yet to be created. And if you think my diary is incomprehensible, would you be willing to make constructive suggestions about which gaps I need to fill in?
Because fighting over what little is left will speed us along to our eventual deaths, whereas co-operation might mean survival? Nothing is assured, of course... "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
Essentially, ecosocialism is the provisioning of an economy so that essential needs for all come first, for the sake of more extensive reductions in fossil-fuel consumption than would otherwise be possible.
They would be determined democratically, in accordance with the prescription of economic democracy. It doesn't take a lot of imagination. Food, clothing, shelter, water. The ecosystemic pressure upon communities will be to subtract needs as things become progressively more impossible to get. We will be living in a state of emergency, under an imperative of ecological triage.
Now, it can't just be that that you're concerned with, if you thought the diary was "incomprehensible." What else do I need to change? "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
Now, it can't just be that that you're concerned with, if you thought the diary was "incomprehensible." What else do I need to change?
No.
Our global capitalist system has placed major decisions about production in the hands of an oligarchy of capitalists within a competitive system. Such a framework will be inappropriate to the drastic cuts in fossil-fuel use which will be necessary to stabilize global climate.
A better framework would be economic democracy, in which major economic decisions about which technologies to use and which businesses to deploy are made by and for local communities, in a democratic context (i.e. after democratic deliberation, and with a democratic vote) who stand either to benefit or lose from their decisions per se. The only way we'll develop habits of responsibility for abrupt climate change is if we're placed directly in charge of managing it. Otherwise it's the old alibi of "what can one person do?"
Thanks for asking. Does that help any? "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
Does that help at all? If the local people are concerned about their immediate short term concerns will they be bothered about long-term consequences? Do they care about CO2 emissions? About risks to water down-stream of their community? How easily can they be bribed or pressured?
Valid questions all.
To create a real, global economic democracy, you'd have to put economic decision-making power in the hands of local people themselves, everywhere. This would mean, first of all, granting them control over the issuance and use of their currency, and secondly, putting them collectively in charge of the means of production. Once they have that, what kind of bribe or pressure would dislodge them from tasks of ecosystem co-existence?
Societies in the capitalist past were concerned with "progress," the ultimate triumph of science and technology in increasing the productivity of human labor to bring technological utopia into being. The scientific paradigm that was to bring "progress" into being was based on mechanics, as the various sciences were created to fine-tune the economic and physical machines of world society, to make them ever-more-efficient producers of the dreamed-of technological utopia.
The ultimate result of this trend will be the ecological dystopia described, in part, by Mark Lynas in Six Degrees, in which climatic disruption is completely out of control, eventually leading to the breakdown of civilization and the release of the methane hydrates from beneath the ocean floors. The "Communist" societies were no different in this regard.
Future societies will have to concern themselves with "survival," both individual and global, or risk its opposite, death. Material conditions will bring this concern into being, as capitalism can be expected to bring everything to the brink of disaster. A subordination of all of society's "machines," both human and inorganic, to the ecological requirements of survival will be needed by all societies. The scientific paradigm of said future societies will be based on thermodynamics, as humanity will be coping with the ecological consequences of capitalist entropy for some centuries to come. Relations between human beings will have to re-adapt to thermodynamic circumstances, as the entropic consequences of economic competition will have to be phased out.
Btw, I know this has become standard usage, but "CO2 emissions" is a poor descriptor of what is causing abrupt climate change. People have been "emitting CO2" since they came out of the genetic stock, yet only with the current, massive scale of burning Earth's fossil-fuel endowment, combined with the wanton destruction of Earth's forests, its lungs, has it come to where we are now.
The point in discussing economic democracy in this context is to suggest systems in which people, at the local level (the level at which ecosystem impacts are felt), can be empowered to adapt human society to the preservation of ecosystem resilience. In this regard, economic democracy, though imperfect, would be better than economic oligarchy, which (at this present date) seeks to shield the investor class from the ecosystem consequences of its actions. "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
The point in discussing economic democracy in this context is to suggest systems in which people, at the local level (the level at which ecosystem impacts are felt), can be empowered to adapt human society to the preservation of ecosystem resilience
I don't believe that local action is sufficient (if that's what you're suggesting): we need an appropriate "hierarchy" of decision making. And by hierarchy I don't really mean hierarchy. Hierarchy of networks or something.
How on earth do we transition to the magical utopia where the New Ecological Man understands and internalizes his long term interests? What happens during that transition period when local communities still have that old understanding of progress?
So you're saying that people won't want electricity
If electricity is necessary to survival, yes, they'll want it.
won't want goods to trade with others for stuff they want?
There will still be "trade," but it will be oriented toward achieving the means of subsistence rather than the accumulation of capital. See Maria Mies' and Veronika Bennholdt-Thomsen's The Subsistence Perspective for further elaboration.
Let's say some community decides, yes we want to strip mine our coal and use it for a nice new and shiny CO2 emitting power plant.
How likely is this scenario? You're going to have a community which lives in an area, which is planning to ruin that area's ecosystem for the sake of extracting coal, and which will have neither coal nor livable land once the coal runs out? Who's going to vote for that?
How about if they decide that they need that water for irrigation, and screw the downstream communities?
There will still be a United Nations to adjudicate disagreements between communities.
How on earth do we transition to the magical utopia where the New Ecological Man understands and internalizes his long term interests?
What is the point of this sarcastic little dig? Figure it out yourself, if you even care.
What happens during that transition period when local communities still have that old understanding of progress?
Are communities in power now? "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
If?
There will still be "trade," but it will be oriented toward achieving the means of subsistence rather than the accumulation of capital.
Doesn't answer the question of who has the electronics factories, vehicle ones, the universities, the power plants, the rail plant manufacturing, the pharma, etc.
LOL. I guess you haven't ever spent any time in a mining community. It lasts a long time, it's a culture, and a lifestyle. A century down the road your great great grandkids can worry or move.
That you're presuming a socio-cultural mindset which doesn't exist and which I imagine even you don't think will come into being overnight. In the meantime those mining and logging and other communities will vote for what they want - more of the same. So that means you either accept that or you establish a centralized coercive apparatus. I'm curious whether you opt for the environmentally harmful but non coercive option, or the existence of a central government with the power of coercion.
Are communities in power now?
Nope, but I don't want them to be. Local interests need to be balanced against broader ones. That's why multiple levels of government are a good idea.
LOL. I guess you haven't ever spent any time in a mining community.
Mining communities are not autonomous. It may "be a culture," but it's a culture dependent upon a money system which comes to it from outside.
That you're presuming a socio-cultural mindset which doesn't exist
Wrong. There clearly exist groups which Joan Martinez-Alier counts among the "environmentalism of the poor" -- the movement for community revitalization, the environmental justice movement, the rural peasantry, and so on, all of which are potentially open to a world society existing along such lines.
So that means you either accept that or you establish a centralized coercive apparatus.
You mean like the centralized coercive apparatus of Wall Street, in the city (NYC) that is part of your nom de plume? Sorry, that already exists. "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
Of course they're not autonomous, nor is anyone else, so what's the point?
Really? If you look at successful progressive movements they all include at their basis a higher standard of living for the majority of society with that being defined in the traditional way.
You mean like the centralized coercive apparatus of Wall Street, in the city (NYC) that is part of your nom de plume? Sorry, that already exists.
Actually rather decentralized. And if you're suggesting that the desire for increased standard of living is the result of coercion you're mostly wrong. The coercion that that shift required has already run its course in most of the world. The level of violence and coercion required to reverse it would be similar to the sum total of that exercized by capitalism and communism over the past two centuries. Add that to the chaos and suffering caused by climate change and resource depletion and even if I found your end stage utopia attractive, rather than some sort of nightmarish dystopia, it still would be crazy to try to implement under the present circumstances.
Really? If you look at successful progressive movements
Did I say I was a "progressive"?
And what's a "successful progressive movement"? The "progressives" have done rather less than nothing to stop neoliberalism.
Actually rather decentralized.
In the US you have a wealthiest 1% which owns half of all non-home capital assets. You have Washington DC printing its money and Wall Street trading the Fortune 500's assets. Globally you have the World Economic Forum, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderberg Group, the WTO, the IMF/World Bank, a few hundred billionaires which own as much as the bottom half of humanity, and so on.
Sorry, power in the US and in today's world is centralized, far more so than what I'm proposing. "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
In the wake of the coming ecosystem crises, people will want more autonomy, not less. "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
Yeah, some fantasyland in which I actually get to live. "Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon
Here it is in a nutshell. Capitalism is on a collision course with the Earth's capacity to sustain life; the existing society cannot be reformed or regulated so that it will "behave"; thus socialist revolution will be necessary to bring society into conformance with ecosystem stability.
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