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Your objection to the Soviet Union boils down to the idea that it can't be considered a failure of socialism because it was a variant of  Marxism, and Marxism is not real socialism in any form.

Don't know what you mean by "Marxism" here.  It's hard for me to describe the Soviet Union as a "variant of Marxism" when I know that Marx predicted the rise of socialism "in the most advanced nations," and Russia ca. 1917 was hardly one of those.  Marx also had nothing to do with the "socialism in one nation" doctrine of Joseph Stalin.

Isn't there something a bit strange in so utterly rejecting Marx's vision while embracing his critique?

Was Marx supposed to have predicted global warming?  And is the labor theory of value supposed to lead automatically to Marx's endorsement of industrialism?

If you want to find it in Holy Writ, look up those passages in Engels' Dialectics of Nature where he suggests ending the division between countryside and city, because that's where all of this is leading.  

given the approach I don't see how it can possible be anything other than incoherent even if fleshed out.

I don't see how any constructive critique can be made out of your response.  You might try suggesting that I do something different.

Finally, like all expressions of radical environmentalism that I have ever seen, this one marries a radical environmental agenda with a radical sociopolitical one. Yes, I understand that for their proponents you can't have one without the other. Somehow it seems to have escaped them that all it does is make change even more unpalatable and more painful and difficult to implement; adding the massive upheaval of socio-political revolution to the wrenching changes required by the environmental constraints means all the more resistance and suffering.

Are you suggesting that world society shouldn't change its bad environmental behaviors?  Social change will be necessary to adapt to ecosystem change.

Given that, the fact that you've already taken the first big step down the Leninist path in point six doesn't bode well.

I really don't understand how anything I said is "Leninist" in any way, least of all in the doctrine of "democratic centralism" being repudiated here.

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 at 05:05:51 PM EST
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Don't know what you mean by "Marxism" here.  It's hard for me to describe the Soviet Union as a "variant of Marxism" when I know that Marx predicted the rise of socialism "in the most advanced nations," and Russia ca. 1917 was hardly one of those.  Marx also had nothing to do with the "socialism in one nation" doctrine of Joseph Stalin.

Sort of like you've never had a full blown picture perfect Chicago school neoliberal 'reform', doesn't mean that we can't speak of the real world implementation of that philosophy. Nor does it mean that the Soviet Union was the only possible form of implementing a Marxist inspired system. But to deny that it was an example of that is absurd.

Was Marx supposed to have predicted global warming?  And is the labor theory of value supposed to lead automatically to Marx's endorsement of industrialism?
If you want to find it in Holy Writ, look up those passages in Engels' Dialectics of Nature where he suggests ending the division between countryside and city, because that's where all of this is leading.

I haven't read that Engels piece and I'll take a look. I have read plenty of Marx and it isn't a question of not predicting global warming, again that's just a constraint on any system. It's more his conception of what Progress means - i.e. more and better stuff, better working conditions with more leisure, and the destruction of traditional cultures and means of production and their replacement by a homegenizing and  homegenous system - first capitalism for the bulk of the dirty work of destruction, then socialism.  He also didn't have much love for rural lifestyles. Marx was a  brilliant thinker but also a creature of his time and you can no more take out that notion of progress from Marxism and have anything coherent remmain than you can from the ideology of liberalism (using it in the non American sense).

Are you suggesting that world society shouldn't change its bad environmental behaviors?  Social change will be necessary to adapt to ecosystem change.

No, I am saying that attempting to achieve both radical socio-economic change and adapting to new environmental constraints is more difficult than doing one or the other and the radical green attempt to link the two would make both less likely to happen.

I really don't understand how anything I said is "Leninist" in any way, least of all in the doctrine of "democratic centralism" being repudiated here.

It has to do with your view that the working class' desire for higher income and less hours constitutes a false consciousness and that they will eventually 'understand' that instead they should want revolution. That was the Bolsheviks' first step down the path to deciding that the working class, and the population in general, has to be repressed in their own interest. Of course you're not there yet but what happens if people consistently vote against what you want - you've already decided that it's a sham democracy... What's the next step?

by MarekNYC on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 at 01:30:23 PM EST
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Nor does it mean that the Soviet Union was the only possible form of implementing a Marxist inspired system. But to deny that it was an example of that is absurd.

You suggested that I was against the Soviet Union because  it was a "variant of Marxism."  Actually, I don't care much for "Marxism," here and now, because in this world it is largely the doctrinal property of "Marxists" (quoth Marx: "I am not a Marxist.")  Sure, the Soviet Union was a "Marxist inspired system."  Tony Cliff thought it constituted "state capitalism."  Indeed, many "Marxists" are "Marxist inspired thinkers."  Far too many of them are doctrinaire, sectarian, self-imagined foot soldiers incapable of open, freethinking dialogue, and hung up on some defense of history which has since lost its relevance.  Their potential for social change verges on zero.

I hope that says something to you about where I stand.  Btw, I do own a paper copy of the entire Marx-Engels Collected Works.

NB: The Chicago School was actually in charge of a government -- post-1973 Chile under Augusto Pinochet.  The pure application of its principles actually happened.  It was such a disaster that Pinochet himself reversed course in the early 1980s.  So to talk about how "you've never had a full blown picture perfect Chicago school neoliberal 'reform'" is a bit off the mark.

It has to do with your view that the working class' desire for higher income and less hours constitutes a false consciousness and that they will eventually 'understand' that instead they should want revolution.

You are importing the concept of "false consciousness" into your reading of what I've said.  Try to address what I actually said, rather than what you imagine it to be.  I see no point in suggesting that "consciousness" is something we ought to reduce to logical postulates of "truth" or "falsehood."  

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 at 03:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It has to do with your view that the working class' desire for higher income and less hours constitutes a false consciousness and that they will eventually 'understand' that instead they should want revolution.

The desire for "higher income" is rightly understood as a desire for a greater share of the economic pie.  Of course, with the ecosystemic undertow (increasing shortages; climate change; decreasing economic and political stability) shrinking the total size of the economic pie, the mere desire for a greater share of the economic pie will only lead to smaller incomes unless we change the way in which the economic pie is produced.  

Reformism will not do this to the extent need to avert ecosystem disaster.

"Imagine all the people/ Sharing all the world" -- John Lennon

by Cassiodorus on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 at 04:11:47 PM EST
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