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First let me say I wrote my comments last night late in the evening at the end of a very long and trying day after barely skimming your diary.  If they came off more belligerent than they should have, my apologies.

Today after some rest and a little closer reading, my congratulations.  I think you've done a better job in a short time of "getting" Jim Webb than most do.  Far too many get as far as Marine war hero, former Reagan Navy Secretary, wrote an article titled Women Can't Fight, and think they know all they need to know about Jim Webb.  Yeah, and Obama is a black man named Hussein who's a closet Muslim.

Jim Webb On Race, Grievances Of White... - ! * POLITICS * ! - tribe.net

Webb even drew a parallel between this bloc and African Americans, suggesting that their grievances with and needs from the federal government are remarkably similar.

"Black America and Scots-Irish America are like tortured siblings. They both have long history and they both missed the boat when it came to the larger benefits that a lot of other people were able to receive. There's a saying in the Appalachian mountains that they say to one another, and it's, "if you're poor and white, you're out of sight." ..."

" If this cultural group could get at the same table as black America you could rechange populist American politics. Because they have so much in common in terms of what they need out of government."

A powerful coalition indeed. If only there were two politicians who understood these cultures, and had the desire and capacity to unite them for a common cause...

Master of the Senate - The Current

Though no one will ever mistake Webb for a gladhanding backslapper, he has mobilized an extraordinary coalition of Democrats and Republicans behind a dramatic expansion of veterans' educational benefits. After passing by an overwhelming margin in the House, Webb's Post-9/11 Veterans Educational Assistance Act won 75 votes in the Senate. Because the measure was attached to the Democrats' Iraq War spending bill, which included a number of other spending proposals favored by Democrats and opposed by the Bush White House, there is good reason to believe that the entire package will be vetoed. But there is also good reason to believe that something like Webb's proposal will eventually be made law, thanks in no small part to the measure's overwhelming popularity among veterans and military families.

Senator Jim Webb, Choosing His Battles : NPR

Whatever one's beliefs and loyalties to various political interests, and however loudly one wishes to argue about substance, this is no place for underhanded tactics or dissembling behavior when it comes to your colleagues, because the payback in such cases is usually paralysis. The Senate, more than any other body in American government, is a place where a very few people, and on occasion even a single member, can stop things from getting done.

The United States Senate is a venerable institution. It is also an odd kingdom with 100 fiercely protected fiefdoms. No, let me amend that, as they say in this place. In terms of volatility, behind all of its courtesies the United States Senate is composed of 100 scorpions in a jar. And one should be very careful in deciding how and when to shake that jar.

From the book, A Time to Fight: Reclaiming a Fair and Just America by Jim Webb, United States Senator, published by Broadway Books, a division of Random House, Inc., reprinted with permission.

James Webb on the Issues

And my apologies if this is more domestic US political stuff than is appropriate for ET.  As you may have guessed by now, I am not entirely objective on these topics.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 12:55:41 PM EST

I am not entirely objective on these topics.

Who could be, with the monstrosities that have been committed in our, (US citizens), name?  Given the footprint the US has on the word, I hope the European members of ET will appreciate the discussion.  They certainly have every right to.  We all live on the same planet.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 01:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They certainly have every right to comment on US politics, that is.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 01:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, there is that, and I contend daily with barely suppressed rage at what this administration has done to my country and the world, but that's not really what I meant.

Jim Webb's seeming sudden appearance on the national political stage is something very special, very personal for me.  Way beyond what he might be able to do in reining in or bringing down this administration.  That first quote, about a realignment in American politics by bringing together the Scots-Irish and African-Americans, was and is quite literally the single most interesting political statement I have read in my lifetime.  I do not exaggerate when I say that.

I am one of those people Webb describes in that WSJ article and in his book.  I come from the same people Webb does.  Almost every anecdote he tells about members of his family might easily apply to my own.  For almost every stereotype about poor white working class, Appalachians, redneck Southerners, I can point to perfect examples within my own family.

And for the few of us who have come to have, may I say more enlightened views, I can point to a direct correlation with better education and better economic opportunities.  The majority who try to make do with high school educations or less at menial jobs, mostly fit the stereotypes to a remarkable to degree.  To the extent that some of us have been able, one way or another, to acquire more and better education and more and better economic prospects, we tend to be less like the stereotypes and more like the general population around us.  Those who are left behind in ignorance and poverty comprise a significant portion of Bush's twenty some percent dead enders.  The few of us who managed to escape the cycle look back in sadness and in anger at a system that perpetuates that cycle.

I have thought for most of my life that poor working class blacks and poor working class whites, of whatever ancestry, have more in common with each other than either does with the wealthy and privileged few who own and control almost everything about our society.  Yet since the days of Reconstruction, when newly freed black slaves suddenly became new competition for the poorest white underclass in the post Civil War South, the two have been set against each other like two cocks in a pit.    Two centuries of tragic history have made them into enemies and rivals when they should have been natural allies.

Occasionally black civil rights or religious leaders have tried to make this point, usually to no avail.  Occasionally one or another white liberal, usually wealthy and educated and not from the South, tries to make the point, also to no avail.  In both cases they are dismissed or ridiculed or threatened into silence.

Along comes Jim Webb.  He represents the other side of the table.  He is not an outsider, some effete latte sipping liberal from San Francisco or Boston.  He is one of us.  One of the few who escaped the cycle to be sure, thanks to Annapolis and Viet Nam, but one of us nonetheless.  He is an authentic war hero, a lawyer, a deep thinker and prolific writer, and now by all accounts a promising political figure.  He is perhaps the only person on the planet who can make that case from the other side of the table and win a fair hearing.  I don't think he can be dismissed or ridiculed.  I am quite sure he cannot be intimidated.  And I think the more they try to silence him, the louder he will get.  We're kind of like that.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 04:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Informative, personal, and pointing to something which is fundamental - the politics of the right are about distracting from class conflicts via the use of clanism and other 'us vs them' fearmongering.

And how Webb can cut through that bullshit via his credibility, coming from both his origins and his life. A very hopeful comment.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 05:28:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kerry was also a war hero - more so than Bush, who was a loser - so factually I'm not sure Webb has an advantage.

That won't be proved until the Right tries pulling its usual bullshit line about something trivial which 'proves' he's not a winner or a patriot. If Webb passes that test with a good two-syllable smack-down, he could be in with a chance. Otherwise he'll be Kerry'd - especially if he tries to be too thoughtful or measured.

What's bitterly disappointing about the Dems is how they always legitimise these trivial playground talking points by play defence against them.

Obama doesn't wear a flag pin, so for weeks afterwards dKos dissects and repeats the flag pin comment to 'prove' that Obama is really a patriot and the flag pin isn't an issue.

Really, it's not.

And so on. There are examples every few weeks, so you can bet another one will roll up soon.

What's ironic is that if the Dems went on the attack and savaged the bullshit records of the Right's so-called patriots by nailing how all they do is posture, yap, bark, flail around and only deliver impression management with no substance, they could destroy the credibility of the Republicans for a generation.

The voters are ready to hear it. And there are so many potential talking points in that angle, it would be huge fun to see them turned into an offensive weapon.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 09:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember Dan Rather?  He was a buldog on Bush's National Guard "Service."  So some "retired Air Force Colonel" "forged" an exact copy of a document that clearly showed his utter contempt for his obligations, right down to using paper from the era, an IBM  Selectric with the same ball, provided signatures indistinguishable from the original, "aged" the document and leaked it to CBS.   Rather bit and ran with the document, using it in an on air piece.  Then, in an act of stunningly evil genius, (KR?), the fact that it was forged was announced to the world and the White House, in high dudgeon, demanded that CBS apologize and discipline Rather. It ain't for nuthin they call him Turdblossom.

Under Paeley CBS might have fought back.  Under the accountants they caved, in the process betraying a legacy going back to Edward R. Murrow's coverage of Europe before the US entered WW II. I won't watch Katie Curic.  She should have stayed on the morning show.  But then the accountants didn't know there would be any demand for "real news."  They are just selling Viagra.

But I do think that Webb would take their shit and pump it back up their own asses.  Further, if it is a battle of angry white men, he might give McCain a stroke.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 10:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... Further, if it is a battle of angry white men, he might give McCain a stroke.

VP candidates rarely make much impact on the final electoral college vote, and not so rarely become President. So there is a strong case for the argument that the VP should be chosen in terms of being the replacement President rather than in terms of benefit on the campaign trail.

And yet, nobody ever seems to do more than give lip service to that approach. Since, after all, facing a Presidential election, and especially following two that went down to the wire, with Gore and Bush only barely winning the election, nominees go for the possible marginal electoral benefit over the more important question of the structure of their administration should they win.

However, there is one possible scenario where a VP nomination for Webb could possibly make a major contribution. And that is if Sen. McCain goes down the "Sen. Obama did not serve in the military, therefore he has to shut up about military strategy" track again. As VP nominee, and as a bit of a bulldog, Sen. Webb could very well make the argument that the best test for being in charge of a nation's strategic direction is being right on big issues, and Obama was right on the biggest issue while McCain was wrong.

Given McCain's temperament, its easy to imagine him becoming apoplectic, and reinforcing the meme that he is too unstable to be trusted as CiC.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 12:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Furthermore, much as the evil presence of Cheney as V.P. has been, (in jest?), considered as providing insulation to Bush against impeachment or worse, so might Webb provide Obama with a buffer against the most ruthless of RWNs who might otherwise consider "executive action."  He would likely take the approach of "let justice prevail or let the heavens fall."  And in such a situation he would be seen as almost certain to command the loyalty of the uniformed services when push came to shove.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 12:45:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... current scenario rather than a Science Fiction scenario for the US ... however, fortunate for constitutional democracy in the US, the Bush/Cheney administration is led to a lot of dissatisfaction in the army in the crucial middle ranks where a golpe de estado benefits substantially from a coherent faction in support and disorganized opposition.

That is, the radical reactionary faction in general control of the Republican party can no longer expect to enjoy the same support among Colonels and Majors that they might once have expected.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This type of diary is more than welcome: it exposes some information not covered in other media channels. Also, what happens in the US in November 08 will have a profound effect on everybody in this world, including us Europeans. We'd better pay attention.

I also regard almost all of the US based ETers to be 'European' in outlook.

The objections written here earlier referring to US diaries are not usually based on a single diary, but on the effect of many simultaneous US diaries moving the 'image' of the site westwards. The question is how many US diaries is too many?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 02:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I am well aware that American affairs seem to take up a lot of real estate here at ET, especially during the election season, often to the detriment of more, ahem, European topics.  

It is a simple fact that what we do affects the rest of the world, too often of late in harmful ways.  I for one would like to see a much more coherent and powerful EU, something like a United States of Europe, better able to counterbalance the enormous and unwarranted influence of the US in world affairs.

And yes, I think my outlook is a lot more European than most Americans.  I think of myself as a child of the Enlightenment, cousin to those Europeans who for the first time in what, two millenia, raised the lamp of reason as at least equal to the law of the church.  I think in many ways the US as a nation is also such a child and such a cousin, though there are those in our body politic who would rather extinguish that lamp and return us to something closer to the feudal past of Europe.  I find moral support here in resisting their efforts.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 03:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
budr, are you an interested supporter of Webb, or are you in so way affiliated?  You seem so "organized" about it all.  (Forgive me if the question seems impertinent, it is not meant so.  Me just interested to know.)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 03:31:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am an interested supporter, for reasons I have tried to explain in my comments.  I see something very special and very promising in his political career.  His is the very first campaign I ever contributed money to.  I am not affiliated in any formal or organized way, though I can see how it might seem so.  I have been hoarding web links and relevant quotes by and about Webb since he first got my attention with that WSJ article a couple of years ago.  Sorry if I seem a little over the top about Webb.  As I said, I am less than objective about all of this.

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 04:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you very much for answering so.  Your help in delineating who Webb is has helped us alot.  I'm frankly very glad to know you are doing this because of your beliefs, and not because you are the Webb web presence.

In fact, from your comments i have learned much, and am beginning to understand how valuable his voice, in amurkan politics, has become.

Despite our differences, i can now easily say i respect him.  While before, i only supported him so he could send  the previous senator to the dogs.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 07:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I very much like his stance on Iraq--get out--and his stance on Iran--defence, not offense.

For the rest, he comes across as the kind of person who could be interested in Energise America, or other largescale projects where a lot of the thinking-through (the research) is in place--

AR Geezer--heh, I hope I remember this right!--wrote that he would prefer Webb to stay in the Senate.  I found a clip where Webb, when asked would he run for Vice President, chuckled, he didn't say no, but he...

...ach.  Maybe it's another media trick--searching around, there he is--the maverick intelligent one, we found an intelligent politician who will fight for the poor--

So, I'd be very interested in....well, if he's intelligent, I'd expect him not to know what to do about the US's coming energy ills--I wouldn't even expect him to know that ills were a-coming.  But...if he's the mould breaker, and Obama may be a mould breaker, though I saw some intense christian thing that was posted here (I think)--

Well, Jesus, Mary, God, Allah, the un-nameable--one of the questions about Obama is: "Is he a christian--or is he really a muslim?"

So Webb maybe galvanising people, a minority in the US--I don't know the percentages.  40% max?  Or is it much higher?

For context, in the UK I have heard the following and expect it to be a well-accepted argument:

"Well, Gordon Brown."

ME: "Yeah, that 10% tax thing.  What a complete git!"

"Yes, I've decided I'll vote for Cameron next time."

Errrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Ah!  Paranoia!

In January, at Rule .303:

Rule .303: Vice President Jim Webb?

It is true that Jim Webb would absolutely hate running for Vice President. He's not a glad-handing, baby-kissing kind of guy.

The end of the article:

Rule .303: Vice President Jim Webb?

Virginia Republicans may jeer but really they should push for a Vice President Webb more than anyone else. After all, that would mean that his seat would be up for grabs in 2010 rather than 2012. It all sounds a little far-fetched but then nobody seemed to believe me this time last year when I was telling anyone who would listen that Jim Webb was going to run against and defeat George Allen in a Senate race. So let's wait and see.

At this point, I'm talking about things I've never experienced except via media of some kind, so...hmmm...hey!



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 07:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
John Edwards in particular would be complimented nicely by Webb. They have similar messages of economic populism and share vocal concern for the well-being of poor, rural whites. Both are outspoken opponents of the war in Iraq.

Now that would have done my heart good.

The more I see of Obama the more I like him, but he was not and is not my first choice for Prez.  My head waited for Gore long after my heart had settled on Edwards, and he would still be my first choice, not because of race or gender, but because his populist message about Two Americas was closest to my own values.  When Edwards dropped out I was equally lukewarm about Obama and Hillary.  Everything I have seen since then has made me think more of Obama and less of Hillary.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 08:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to know more about Jim Webb from an unbiased source, I highly recommend The Nightingale's Song by Robert Timberg.  It's a profile of five US Naval Academy graduates, Jim Webb and John McCain among them, and well worth reading in its own right.

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 07:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I probably should have made clear: my interest and support for Webb has very little to do with his prospects as a possible Obama VP, or even as a Senator from Virginia, though I am pleased by both for what they may portend.  My interest in Webb grows from the political implications of that WSJ article that I quoted first.  All the rest flows from there.

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 05:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The money quote, which resonates with much of what has been written in this thread:

WSJ: Secret GOP Weapon: The Scots-Irish vote by JAMES WEBB on October 23, 2004

The decline in public education and the outsourcing of jobs has hit this culture hard. Diversity programs designed to assist minorities have had an unequal impact on white ethnic groups and particularly this one, whose roots are in a poverty-stricken South. Their sons and daughters serve in large numbers in a war whose validity is increasingly coming into question. In fact, the greatest realignment in modern politics would take place rather quickly if the right national leader found a way to bring the Scots-Irish and African-Americans to the same table, and so to redefine a formula that has consciously set them apart for the past two centuries.
Note that this was written 10 days before the 2004 presendential election, so it's not like Webb made this point about uniting the African-Americans and the Scots-Irish after it was clear that Obama would be the likely 2008 presidential candidate. Or maybe it was clear back then, to Webb? I was most unimpressed by Obama's keynote at the 2004 Democratic convention, but then again as a foreigner I was not part of the intended audience.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 06:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think that article had anything to do with presidential politics unless Webb had aspirations of his own, which was my first thought.  I wonder if Webb even knew who Obama was back then.  I didn't.  No, I think Webb's idea of a Scots-Irish/African American political realignment is his own original thinking.  That's why it got my attention.  It's first time I had read anything so close to my own thinking, and in the Wall Street Journal of all places.

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 07:19:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, I didn't read any belligerence, so no problems there.

For what it's worth, my take on "diaries from the US" is that, as long as the diary tells me something new, with local flavour, I'm fine with it--for me ET is E in that Europe is its home location.  The T is global--for me.

Anyways, I had a look at the numbers for Virginia and I see Drew's point.  I like the idea of a working white working black coalition, an emancipated or enlightened realisation that their differences are fantasies.  I mean, culturally created through history--the history is true; the need to 'believe in it' in some way as as an identifier--identity politics--is just beating each other over the head while someone else drinks gin and tonics and shakes their head--so their needs are the same.  (Okay!  Very badly expressed!)

But...the numbers:

(Allen's numbers first, then Webb's.)

CNN.com - Elections 2006

VOTE BY RACE AND GENDER TOTAL Allen Webb
White Men (39%) 62% 38%
White Women (39%) 53% 47%
Non-White Men (10%) 25% 75%
Non-White Women (12%) 18% 82%



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 03:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In a state like VA, and more generally for a divide and conquer strategy in part of what the radical reactionary faction takes for granted as its base, those raw numbers are not what is critical. What's critical is the location.

Webb won Buchanan County, in Western VA where VA meets the WV/KY border, 55/44. He won Dickenson county next door by the same margin. Russell County ... the center of Western VA, and the only county in its neighourhood that does not have a state border, he won by 51/49.

Now, to the south and west of there along the KY border, he lost Wise and Lee by 46/53 and 44/55, and Scott and Washington Counties on the Carolina border he lose by double digit margins, the high 30's to the low 60's.

So the Republicans carried a positive margin out of extreme western Virgina.

However, where the post-Civil Rights Act Republican Party would hope to gain a quite substantial positive margin of votes to offset a healthy Democratic majority in Northeast VA ... Webb basically fought them to a near draw. The Republicans still got a positive margin from western VA altogether ... but a single-digit margin from the region as a whole, rather than the double digit margin that they would ordinarily expect.

And unlike Parliamentary elections, in US Presidential politics it does not matter where a vote swings in a swing state. Bringing out 1,000 new Democratic votes, or switching 500 former Republican votes in a swing county and "winning" the county has exactly the same impact as adding 1,000 votes new Democratic votes or swinging 500 former Republican votes in a heavily Republican county.

And there are a lot more Republican votes available to swing in the heavily Republican areas.

The Republicans understand this arithmetic ... after all, in the US, the game of divide and conquer in the middle of the other party's coalition base normally goes under the heading of "Reagan Democrats". They know that if Obama holds together the Kerry voters, swings not very many "moderate ex-Republicans", aka Republican leaning Independents, and makes a "divide and conquer" strike into any one of the main elements of the radical reactionary electoral base, the game is over except for the shouting.

Appalachia ... the "10th Nation of North America" that is so often overlooked that even those looking for the cultural nations of North America confused if for a border region between the more celebrated cultural regions that is borders on ...

... for quite a lot of reasons is a very plausible candidate for that divide-and-conquer strike into the Republican base.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

" If this cultural group could get at the same table as black America you could rechange populist American politics. Because they have so much in common in terms of what they need out of government."

It was this quote or something like it by Kieth Olbermann during an interview about his latest book that first got my attention.  I couldn't find a way to get to that interview on the Countdown web site.

The nightmare of southern politicians for 100 years has been such a union.  Hence the encouragement for the attitude "Well, at least you ain't no nigger." by the Klan and White Citizens Councils.  I hope my redneck brethren are finally awakening in significant numbers to just what a grotesque consolation that is.

In northwest Arkansas, after Brown vs. Board of Education, a number of school districts were proceeding, at their own initiative, when White Citizens Council types from out of the area showed up and roused up opposition.  Funny how that type of outside agitator never got media coverage.  Then we had Orvile Faubus, Little Rock Central High School, Eisenhower and the 101st Airborne; that is all most remember about civil rights in Arkansas.

The movie "The Great Debaters" with Denzel Washington and Forest Whittaker, now available on CD, gives a picture of how this played out in the '30s, in the piney woods of east Texas, in Marshall, not too far from the Texarkana.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 05:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahem, They were proceeding, at their own volition, towards integrating black and white schools in their districts, with minimal local opposition,

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 05:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The nightmare of southern politicians for 100 years has been such a union.

In A People's History of the US, Zinn makes the point quite explicitly that the wedge between working class whites and blacks was driven intentionally by the elites. I don't have my copy handy so I can't quote.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 05:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Damn it, I need to read Zinn's book.  It has been on my To Read list for a long time.

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 07:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too.  I have heard of it, but don't have a copy. Yet.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 08:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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