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I don't think the Lisbon Treaty is a bad treaty, but the way the national governments tried to ram it through is off-putting, and the way the public debate on the "Constitution" was muzzled in the run-up to the Spanish referendum really pissed me off.

The only thing I agree with Jerome about regarding these treaties is that they are not being defeated on the content, but on the procedure.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 04:34:13 PM EST
When nobody can read the content because it is rendered in the form of "in article x, paragraph y is altered in this sense... throughout article z, word v is replaced by w" -- what do you expect?

The current setting is an atomised society where trust in the political establishment is lost, along with most connections between the political process and the public. So, you can no longer rely on what used to work.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 04:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as you know they did that on purpose and took until last month to publish a consolidated version. You really can't fault people for wanting to give these bozos a black eye at every opportunity (be it in France, the Netherlands or Ireland). The only reason Spain approved it (with 45% participation!) is that we have hungups about being properly European.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 04:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
an atomised society where trust in the political establishment is lost, along with most connections between the political process and the public

That doesn't seem like a sound base to tackle peak oil, climate change, or any other crises we might have to face in the next few years.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 05:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because it isn't.

[Insert doom macro of choice here.]

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 06:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert]

[ThatBritGuy's Crystal Ball of Doom™ Technology]

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 02:44:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and I think there's a lot more that we agree on.

Where we might disagree is that I think that a "yes" vote would have been a way more effective repudiation of the current crop of politicians than the "no" ever will be.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 05:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can it be a repudiation to give them what they want?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 05:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's the dilemma. In reality a 'yes' vote would have meant a move - not a diminution - of political power from state governments towards Brussels. It wouldn't have been much of a move, but it would have emphasised the narrative that being European is more important than being - say - Irish.

I think what's being missed is that neither Brussels nor state politicians are seen as representative. The crisis of democracy is Euro-wide - and with good reason, because policy isn't being set by voters or by electorates, but by special interest groups, sub-cliques, elites and paid lobbyists.

Ordinary voters have been deliberately excluded from this process, and most government, in the EU and in nation states, is more interested in talking than listening. Even when someone like Wallstrom puts together one of her famous surveys, she won't be asking the questions that people are really asking themselves - which is why the hell anyone should bother voting when the same old crap gets rolled out cycle after cycle, and no alternative is available.

So the Irish vote is as much about the state of democracy in general as it is about the EU. If the EU wants a treaty that populations will support, it needs to find a way to present itself as a democratic and populist alternative.

Which is not, perhaps, a likely prospect.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 06:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you telling Walström that?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 02:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I exaggerate about the disagreement.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 05:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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