And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 2)

Is Karadžić a war criminal from Serbia?
Wasn't Gotovina also caught, with similar heavy protests in Croatia? One can still hope he won't get away with it like Haradinaj did.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 06:30:56 AM EST

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (none / 0)

Karadzic is a Bosnian Serb. He has been found guilty of war crimes by Western media... and will also be found guilty of war crimes by the Kangaroo Court in the Hague.

Can you give me a single example of a political prisoner and adversary who was acquitted by a court appointed by the ruling elite? Since Socrates till today? No.

So de facto, you are right. Karadzic is already a war criminal. De jure, your remarks are wrong.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

single example (4.00 / 7)

This do?

25th Ann. of Panther 21 Acquittal: Program in NYC

May 13, 1996 marks the 25th anniversary of the acquittal of the Panther 21, who in 1971 were the leadership of the eastern region of the Black Panther Party (BPP).
The Panther 21 were arrested in a pre-dawn raid on April 2, 1969 and charged with conspiracy to blow up the New York Botanical Gardens, department stores, etc. On May 13, 1971, after the longest political trial in New York's history, all 21 New York Panthers are acquitted of all charges in just 45 minutes of jury deliberation.
The acquittal of the Panther 21 was a major political setback and embarrassment for the Manhattan District Attorney's office and the New York Police intelligence unit known as BOSSI which extensively infiltrated and disrupted the BPP's community programs.

or this?

Iranian Political Prisoners Association - انجمن زندانیان سیاسی: The three Amirkabir University students acquitted

Majid Tavakoli, Ahmad Ghassaban, and EhsanMansouri, the three Amirkabir University students who are imprisoned on charges of publishing insulting articles to Islam, in the students chronicle , have been acquitted after 9 months of detention.

or this?

Political prisoner Sami Al-Arian's hunger strike enters third month

As Palestinian activist Sami Al-Arian's hunger strike reaches its 62nd day, family members and friends have expressed grave concerns for his health. A University of South Florida professor of computer science and engineering and outspoken critic of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, Dr. Al-Arian was arrested with three other men shortly after the September 11, 2001, attacks on sensational terrorism charges, and he has remained in US prison ever since. None of the charges against him has resulted in conviction...
The government finally took Al-Arian to court in June of 2005, but after a defense based entirely on Al-Arian's constitutional right to free speech, the jury acquitted him on 8 of 17 terrorism and conspiracy charges, deadlocking on the rest. In a major embarrassment for the government, juries also failed to convict any of Al-Arian's alleged co-conspirators with any crime.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 3)

Good examples. Point taken.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 2)

Also, check the list of the indictees of the ICTY, which is not a clean slate of every indicted Serb sentenced and every Croat or Bosniak or Kosovan acquitted.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:23:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 2)

Most prominently on the Serbian side: Milan Zec. However there is a rather obvious imbalance regarding the relative numbers of Serbs versus other nationalities both indicted and acquitted. I counted 107 Serbs out of 158 indicted in all of the FSRY. (Note the case of the indicted fictional character btw)...

However IMVHO, after Oric and Haradinaj, it's very difficult to claim that this court is impartial.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 3)

I don't think anyone here claims the court is impartial, only that the level of partisanship claimed by vladimir... goes too far.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (none / 1)

Yes, agreed - and honestly, there were instances where individual prosecutors tried their best.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 2)

How is Karadzic a political prisoner? What are the charges against him?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Excerpts (4.00 / 4)

ATTACHMENT A

Between 1 July 1991 and 30 November 1995, Radovan KARADZIC, acting individually or in concert with others, including acting in concert with Momcilo KRAJISNIK and Biljana PLAVSIC between 1 July 1991 and 31 December 1992; participated in the below-charged crimes in order to secure control of those areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina which had been proclaimed part of the Serbian republic. Those areas include but are not limited to the municipalities of: Banja Luka; Bijeljina; Bileca; Bosanska Krupa; Bosanski Novi; Bosanski Petrovac; Bosanski Samac; Bratunac; Brcko; Cajnice; Celinac; Doboj; Donji Vakuf; Foca; Gacko; Hadzici; Ilidza; Ilijas; Jajce; Kljuc; Kalinovik; Kotor Varos; Nevesinje; Novi Grad; Novo Sarajevo; Pale; Prijedor; Prnjavor; Rogatica; Rudo; Sanski Most; Sekovici; Sipovo; Sokolac; Teslic; Trnovo; Visegrad; Vlasenica; Vogosca; Zavidovici; and Zvornik.
In order to achieve this objective, the Bosnian Serb leadership, including Radovan KARADZIC, and at relevant times Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC and others, initiated and implemented a course of conduct which included the creation of impossible conditions of life, involving persecution and terror tactics, that would have the effect of encouraging non-Serbs to leave those areas; the deportation of those who were reluctant to leave; and the liquidation of others.
Bosnian Serb forces including military, paramilitary, territorial defence and police units (hereafter Bosnian Serb forces), SDS and government authorities acting under the direction and control of Radovan KARADZIC, and at relevant times Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC and others, were engaged in a variety of actions to significantly reduce the Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat and other non-Serb populations of these municipalities.
From late March to 31 December 1992, Bosnian Serb forces seized physical control of the municipalities listed in Paragraph 9, often through violent attacks. These attacks and take-overs occurred in a co-ordinated and planned manner. Organisation and direction of the take-overs that occurred between late March and 31 December 1992 and the continuing acts of persecution and deportation that occurred up to 30 November 1995, in particular from the municipalities of Bijeljina, Banja Luka and the UN designated "safe area" of Srebrenica (hereafter Srebrenica enclave) and its surroundings, were provided by the SDS, military and police leadership, and the governing organs of Serb municipalities, including the Crisis Staffs, War Presidencies and War Commissions.
Between 1 April 1992 and 30 November 1995, Bosnian Serb forces were also engaged in a forty-four month attack of Sarajevo, which involved inflicting terror on persons living within Sarajevo.
Between 11 and 18 July 1995, Bosnian Serb forces killed thousands of Bosnian Muslim men, who had been captured in several different locations in and around the Srebrenica enclave.
By 30 November 1995, this course of conduct resulted in the death or forced departure of a significant portion of the Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat and other non-Serb groups from the municipalities listed in Paragraph 9 and in and around the Srebrenica enclave.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 08:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 0)

Hmm. Sound like there was a nasty war going on. Does that mean that if you fight and lose a war, you're a war criminal? Or are there some other 'universal' rules that exist and that were disregarded by Radovan Karadzic and his accomplices?

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:00:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 3)

Gotovina won a nasty war, yet he is under trial.

By your definition, there is no such thing as "war criminal".

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

You're right. Croatia did win the war - which is why their political and military leadership is - by and large - NOT being prosecuted for ethnically cleansing 250 000 Serbs from Krajina and Slavonia, or their tens of thousands of Serbian and Muslim victims.

Gotovina was an attempt to show that The Hague is not a biased court seeking to demonize Serbs, whereas the figures prove otherwise. The overwhelming majority of those tried and convicted are Serb.

Based on historic observation, a war criminal is almost always on the losing side.

Do you think that the British incineration of Cologne in WW2 was a crime? What about Nagasaki? What about the circa 700 000 dead in Iraq?

Unfortunately, it's always a question of power and politics... not justice.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:26:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

So are you saying that the Serbian Government is complicit in this demonisation process seeing as they are the ones handing him over to the ICTY?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 0)

I believe that given the Tribunal's outrageous acquittal of Haradinaj and Oric, the new government of Serbia is not serving justice by handing Karadzic over to The Hague.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 7)

Two injustices don't make one.

And for your information,

it was not the acquittal that was outrageous, but the lack of Western action (because it wasn't all in the Tribunals' power) to protect the witnesses whose non-appearance necessitated the acquittal,
the Haradinaj case is not over: the prosecutors are on appeal, and two Kosovo Albanians were indicted for contempt of court for organising the pressurizing of a witness.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 2)

Your argument re WWII leads logically to the conclusion that the Nazis were unfairly targeted, just like Karadzic. Do you really want to pursue the parallel?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 6)

The ICTY is imperfect, but your claim of one-sidedness goes way too far. Gotovina is not the only Croatian indictee (chech the list), but the highest-ranked. Unlike Milosević, Tuđman was dead by 1999 (the year Milo was indicted).

If you believe that an objective trial would have found equal numbers of suspected war criminals among the conflict sides, you have to prove that the war crimes were really equally shared. (It's not enough to prove that the Croatian, Bosniak and Kosovo Albanian sides committed war crimes, too.)

Your words about history are a diversion from the current case. But for your information, I do think that fire bombing by Britain was a war crime (even if there were far more more German war criminals in WWII, thus even an international war tribunal in place of Nuremburg should have shown similar ratios as the ICTY today), and so are nuclear bombs on cities.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:37:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

Croatia did not win this war.NATO did.Croatia was lucky this time to be on a winer side...this was not always case with Croatia.They joined Hitler in WWII but they jumped the winner's wagon toward the end of WWII.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:00:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 4)

re there some other 'universal' rules that exist and that were disregarded by Radovan Karadzic and his accomplices?

Well the charges would relate to the fourth Geneva convention from a brief view of them.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 14)

Or are there some other 'universal' rules that exist and that were disregarded by Radovan Karadzic and his accomplices?

Yes.

You're trying to rant at a crowd containing lots of people who would cheerfully drag Bush x 2, Blair, and a collection of EU leaders and a load of their minions into the same court for assorted war crimes. We'd also throw Putin in the dock, along with pretty much all the leaders in ex-Yugoslavia. You're not likely to get much sympathy for Karadzic. The problem is not that he's being prosecuted, it's that other people aren't.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 7)

I don't mean to rant. Just wanna share my pain.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

great cpmment, colman.

everyone likes to see justice done....

to someone else...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 02:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 3)

the creation of impossible conditions of life, involving persecution and terror tactics...deportation...liquidation...inflicting terror...kill(ing) thousands...

of civilians don't come under any "universal rules" that you know of?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 5)

Hans Fritzsche, Franz von Papen, and Hjalmar Schacht at Nuremberg. From The Nation:

"[Pentagon general counsel Haynes] said these trials will be the Nuremberg of our time," recalled Davis, referring to the Nazi tribunals in 1945, considered the model of procedural rights in the prosecution of war crimes. In response, Davis said he noted that at Nuremberg there had been some acquittals, which had lent great credibility to the proceedings.
"I said to him that if we come up short and there are some acquittals in our cases, it will at least validate the process," Davis continued. "At which point, [Haynes's] eyes got wide and he said, 'Wait a minute, we can't have acquittals. If we've been holding these guys for so long, how can we explain letting them get off? We can't have acquittals. We've got to have convictions.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:20:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 4)

...and before someone misreads this, Haynes doesn't refer to the imperfect ICTY, but the perfectly illegitimate trials at Gitmo.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 2)

Thanks! I was paying too much attention to editing the quote to make clear who was speaking that I didn't notice that the wider context was missing...

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 01:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More gross lies from the BBC (none / 0)

Mr Karadzic, 63, declared independence for Bosnian Serbs in 1991, sparking the 1992-1995 Bosnian war."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7522639.stm

What sparked the war was Alija Izetbegovic's rejection of the Vance-Owen plan signed in Lisbon by all three parties (Serbs, Croats and Muslims). The plan was wrecked by the US administration which encouraged the Muslims to play for 100% of Bosnia... through war.

Interesting how the Western propaganda machine is preparing public opinion for a forceful integration of the Bosnian Serb Republic under Muslim (US sponsored) rule.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:15:01 AM EST

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (4.00 / 2)

Are you speaking about the near future?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:07:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (none / 0)

The plan to reintegrate - or force the Serb Republic to disintegrate - has been on the tables for some time now. I would say the time frame is 2-4 years from now - earlier if the leadership of the Serb Republic capitulates or sells out (literally) and votes the "expected" changes in the constitution.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 05:41:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (4.00 / 3)

The war was not sparked by a single event. A confluence of factors triggered it. Karadzic and, more importantly Milosevic, certainly didn't try to discourage it as the latter had already carved up Bosnia with Tudjman in Karadjordjevo, according to Ante Markovic.
And let me emphasize here that the ICTY's possible bias has no bearing on whether this man was complicit in the murder of 8000, or whatever the final number turns out to be, people in Srebrenica. He was. There is little doubt about that.

Having said that, I think Lenin's Tomb has some valid points about his trial...

And I'm not sure if this has been posted here lately but, have you seen Karadzic's (aka Dragan Dabic) New Age Holistic Medicine website? Apparently it's real...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:09:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (4.00 / 2)

Thanks for all three links...

Tuđman's and Milosecić's replies to Marković (I haven't read them verbatim before), are just scary.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:19:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (4.00 / 3)

Colour me sceptical about its genuineness, its a bit of a coincidence that this website appears to have been set up two days ago as the expiry date is almost exactly a year away (Or possily a year and two days ago, but its a bit of a coincidence)

Administrative Contact:
Whois Privacy Protection Service Inc.
Whois Agent mkhsbymxd@whoisprivacyprotect.com

1.4252740657
Fax: 1.4256960234
PMB 368 14150 NE 20th St - F1
C/O dragandabic.com
Bellevue WA 98007
US
Technical Contact:
Whois Privacy Protection Service Inc.
Whois Agent mkhsbymxd@whoisprivacyprotect.com

1.4252740657
Fax: 1.4256960234
PMB 368 14150 NE 20th St - F1
C/O dragandabic.com
Bellevue WA 98007
US
Status: Locked
Name Servers:
ns1.dreamhost.com
ns2.dreamhost.com
ns3.dreamhost.com
Creation date:
Expiration date: 22 Jul 2009 13: 25: 00

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:30:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (none / 0)

Yep, you're right:

created-date: 2008-07-22 13:25:38.000

However this site is said to be the real deal. And it was registered in May.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (none / 1)

so the domain wasn't registered till after he was caught.

What's the link to the other site? I would think that every iffy new-age salesman is busy trying to claim that they are linked to him on the off chance that people will buy their product

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 11:07:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (none / 1)

http://www.psy-help-energy.com/

And the forums have been busy for a couple of days now!

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 11:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (4.00 / 2)

well if you consider Midget porn "busy". ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 11:34:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (none / 0)

Heh, I was thinking more of this thread (and I could of sworn that there were two more similar threads there yesterday)...

On a side note it's a shame what happens to untended forums on the web :-)

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 02:45:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More gross lies from the BBC (4.00 / 2)

It's not real.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 11:18:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (none / 1)

Vladimir...thank you for trying...I share your pain.
I never had any sympathy for Radovan Karadzic let alone Ratko Mladic but I do feel like you that :
"this dragging of Serbia, its political leadership, its people through stale mud, systematically and without repeal over the past 15 years is, in my opinion, a systematized effort to show the world what happens when a nation refuses to kneel before Empire's boot."
I am tired and disappointed in western society in every possible way...
Looks like it was a terrible mistake that I left Serbia ever.I was naive and had great expectations of "western civilization and democracy".What a crap!

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 01:32:13 AM EST

hi vbo, good to see you again (4.00 / 2)

as you know, Western civilisation "would be a good idea" ...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 08:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hi vbo, good to see you again (4.00 / 6)

Yes...it would be...
I know some of you people are trying hard to bring a trace of decency in a political life of your countries, but...When ever it is necessary your governments are in the end on the same page with Empire...no matter how indecent matter may be in case. That is why non-western people talk about WEST as an entity and put all of you in a same basket.
I don't know why this is a case (cause sometimes like in Iraq's case there was at least unpleasantness in joining USA in this war).Maybe because your government ( and my here in Australia) have same interest as Empire, maybe because they are all DEPENDANT (corrupt)...all simply scared...or all of above. But no matter what so called "west hemisphere" will blindly follow Empire no matter what. And who is not with you/us is against you/us. I hate rigidity, brutality...Empire's politic (if they even feel need for one) as such. I would rather call it naked force. And I hate vassal position of EU and other "westerners".
Serbia is total mess nowadays ...and seeing it raped like this should actually make some of you ashamed (cause your/our governments are doing this in your/our name)...as well as Iraq and other places...After 5 years they are still in Iraq. Not to mention Afghanistan where they openly plan to stay for ever. Looks like it's easier for all of us to simply forget about it. I know, the fact that Empire killed probably about million people in Middle East region and never had to be responsible for it will not make Radovan Karadzic an innocent man, but it feels unfair that Serbian politicians and military commanders had to go to Hag, the court that USA government do not even recognize let alone that that court will ever see anyone responsible for million killed and MILLIONS displaced and terrorized CIVILIANS in Iraq. Hypocrisy is not the word that even touches it.
And what you do about it? Or what can you do when your governments are not even able to complain about it. It's all farce...democracy, justice...these are just a words...
My disappointment comes from my naivety...I did believe in these words...wrongly.
And Jerome, thank your welcome...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 10:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hi vbo, good to see you again (4.00 / 6)

This is the thing that pisses me off the most these days - even more than seeing public infrastructure gutted, even more than seeing the secret police set up kangaroo kourts and summarily sentence immigrants to deportation to countries that are known to commit crimes against humanity, and even more than seeing our social contract used for toilet paper.

To know that these collaborators - this fifth column - are pissing away Europe's entire future for as long as I live and for as long as any children I may have will live, purely to support the grandstanding of an empire whose last really good idea was the Marshall Plan.

It will take at least five decades to rebuild our own societies from the wreckage they leave behind, but it will take at least five generations to rebuild our standing in the world.

Fucking traitors, the lot of them.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:21:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 2)

sigh

I don't think you'll find many people here who'll disagree with you if you say that Serbia got an unnecessarily rough ride over the last two decades. Heck, you would probably even get agreement if you argued that Serbia was just one more in a series of small countries that the US has thrown against the wall and beaten up to prove its manliness to itself and the rest of the world. And that the diplomatic and political blacklisting of Serbia by the Union is a historical injustice.

I'll even argue that what happened viz Milosevic looked a lot like a kangaroo kourt - if for no other reason then because it took as long as it did. I take a rather dim view of the practise of imprisoning someone for years on end without that person actually being convicted of any crime yet.

But FFS, making Karadzic your poster child for the injustices committed against Serbia is like making the outing of Valerie Plame the poster child of investigative reporting. There are serious indications that the man committed war crimes. That means that he should be apprehended and brought to trial. Full stop. End of story.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 10:56:06 AM EST

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (none / 1)

OK. I get your point. The guy is no angel and he's certainly not on a poster in my bedroom.

Now here's the other side of the story:
Karadzic actually did more (much more - Lisbon for one) than Izetbegovic and all the fanatics around him to come to some sort of agreement and preserve peace. Imagine yourself in 1991 - You've got Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban at home and Tudjman, Joschka Fisher & Paul II next door. NATO is sharpening its kitchen knives. Guess who the target is. All your neighbours (Except Milosevic) are breathing fire down your spine and promising you Hell...

My point is simple: when Hell breaks lose, it's just that: Hell. I've never been in a comparable situation but I do know that when someone pushes me, I push back.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 03:21:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

1990 (4.00 / 3)

In 1990, I was a 21 year old in Africa. My father was ambassador, which gave me a fantastic opportunity to hang around some interesting people. During one dinner party organized by my father, at which the German ambassador was invited, the discussion got lively by the time desert was finished (and a couple of bottles had disappeared). The German ambassador was questioning my father on the Belgrade's repressive policies in Kosovo (where at the time, if you recall, the BND was arming and training KLA terrorists). After having exhausted his arguments defending Yugoslav policies in the area my father asked His Excellency: "What do you Germans want in Yugoslavia?". The response, in 1990, was chilling: "8 independent republics..." he said "and if the Serbs don't acquiesce, they'll suffer".

So, was Karadzic a mastermind of evil? Or was he answering violence with violence? As I said in my posts above, you're a freedom-fighter, a resistant, a hero if you win & a tyrant, a terrorist and a blood thirsty killer if you lose.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 03:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

It was ALL PLANNED way way before.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 04:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

When, Why, and by who?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 04:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

You couldn't possibly be insinuating that Germany had nothing to do with the breakup of Yugoslavia. Could you?

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

So you are saying that the Schröder government and Clinton executed Kohl's plans?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

I'm saying that Germany haad a significant role in the violent breakup of Yugoslavia. Through financing, arming and training KLA terrorists and Croatian nationalists. It's well documented. It's a fact. Period.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

That may well be, but insufficient to prove "it was all planned in advance". It's separate elements may have been planned in advance, but I don't have the impression of a particularly prescient operation.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 06:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

Um, the Iraq adventure was also "planned in advance" with no "prescience" whatsoever.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:16:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

All the same, would you say "It was ALL PLANNED way way before" even for the Iraq War?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 3)

No, but if you said "the US establishment has wanted/planned to destroy Iraq for 20 years" it would be hard to argue the point.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

As a corollary, it is not entirely clear to me what and why the German establishment wanted in Yugoslavia. If it wasn't just the coincidental succession of a pro-Catholic-countries Christian Democrat mindset and opportunistic take-us-seriously center-left Atlanticism (with some successful 'taming' of the Young Wild One by Albright).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 04:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

what was the payoff for germany to do this?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 03:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

political influence
economic influence and financial gain

by vladimir on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 04:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

No I'm saying if you know it was planned, who planned it, when did they plan it and what did they hope to get out of it?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 07:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

I don't know if and when it was planed but it looks only logical. After the fall of USSR the new world order started to take place. As we all know all other Eastern Europeans were now put gently in NATO's lap. It was expected from Yugoslavia too. But there was a problem with Milosevic. It still is a puzzle for me what was it that Milosevic expected to make in lousy situation we were in. There was no Russia (it was on its knees with Yelcin on his drunken back) and he even wrongly supported Yelcin's enemies. So nothing to expect from Russia and he was still "pocking Empire in its eye" systematically. Man was a disaster for unfortunate Serbia. It's only natural that westerners did what they did...armed and financed rebellion against Milosevic. Empire (with western vassals) always did that around the globe when ever they had a problem with "dictators" that wouldn't surrender to it's "policy". They are doing it as we speak. The thing is because it was a European matter Europeans were deeply involved in it. Especially Germany and especially in Croatia. Who do you think "privatized" (bought) everything valuable in Croatia? Talking about reward...But I don't think that ex YU was that much interesting as a market at the time...it was geo-strategically issue. Who's military bases will be on the ground. And we now know who they are. What do you think ex YU would look like now if Milosevic choose to give a free ride to Empire (NATO)?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 10:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

Actually, according to some counter-intelligence sources in YU at the time, Milosevic offered the US entry into NATO as early as 1990. This offer was refused.

Political theories as to who planned it, how and why are abundant. Books have been written on the issue and it has also been debated on ET on a number of occasions.

No, it clearly wasn't a "smooth operation" and numerous contingency plans were certainly worked out and implemented as the play unfolded. But to anyone who closely follows the YU wars of "independence" it is more than clear that Germany, the Vatican and later the United States were heavily involved - not as peace makers but as self-serving antagonists.

Once this belligerent outside intervention (that started in the 80's) is established, the question that springs to mind is: was the Bosnian Serb leadership the internal aggressor or the international victim? The same question is pertinent for Slobodan Milosevic.

by vladimir on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 02:00:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

"Actually, according to some counter-intelligence sources in YU at the time, Milosevic offered the US entry into NATO as early as 1990. This offer was refused."
----------
If this is true then something really unacceptable for Empire was attached to it...
Looks like many of western politicians of that time cashed their activity but I still can't believe that it all was about private interest...but who knows...
What do you think was the reason for this refusal (if it happened) and those western plans (if they existed)???

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:42:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

Surely it must have been. Joschka Fischer was nowhere near the government back then.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

You're right. I confused Fischer's role in Kosovo and Hans-Dietrich Genscher's in Bosnia.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

If I remember correctly, Milosevic suspended the autonomy of both Vojvodina and Kosovo around 1900, so it wasn't just Kosovo and its terrorists.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:14:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Vladimir and vbo (4.00 / 4)

It´s hard to understand the dividing tone you use for the readers when we are (mostly) all Europeans. Calling ´empire´ on everyone but Serbia, right in the middle, is not reasonable, yet you separate yourselves in ´us vs. them´.

I´m not going into details that I don´t know, but politics are not separate from a complicit society in the sense that some in power abuse what the public reflects. A society bent on division and separation is going to be exploited for personal gain. Privatization from outside cannot occur without people on the inside selling out....

Our own people sell us out in many ways, but if we have our values straight, we condemn them, not excuse them and glorify them. Criminals cannot escape judgment because others are not punished. Who wants 43 to claim immunity because bin Laden, or Karadzic were not turned in?

Every court room in the world is at times a kangaroo court, but that´s the best system we have to convict those that are dangerous to society. I don´t want war criminals, past or present, from any side, to be acquitted, --because society/we all lose-- so if you are in possession of evidence to convict those that got away, I hope you will act, not just compare them to find somebody ´worse´.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 12:09:01 PM EST

Re: Vladimir and vbo (none / 1)

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that:

You fail to grasp why vbo and I express strong feelings of divide between Serbia and Western society.
The political system of a given constituency is a result of society's sentiment - and that therefore Serb (or Yugoslav) society as a whole is responsible for the events of the past 20 years.
The fact that worse criminals exist doesn't make the lesser criminals innocent.
The judicial system we've got in the West is not perfect, but it's the best we've got, so accept it and contribute to making it better instead of complaining.

On 1: The chasm is the result of 20 years incessant demonization of Serbs, their society, their leadership and their national interests by the Western media and its political-military elite. It's a result of the wars waged by the West against Serbia which created about 50 billion Euros of material damage on infrastructure and industry (of no military importance like, for example, bridges in Novi Sad - Vojvodina), catastrophic environmental pollution (like for example, the bombing out of fertilizer plants in Pancevo), not to mention the French, American and German Air Force's unexploded cluster bombs which still maim the innocent in and around Nis and other cities in central and southern Serbia. Some might say I'm harking, but I'm not. I'm simply pointing out the suffering of war that was experienced by Serbian society at large and that will continue to feed feelings of divide for a very long time to come.

On 2: Yes, society somewhat deserves the leadership it has, but this isn't always true. I don't believe the Russians "deserved" Stalin. Although the political elite of the ex-YU republics did sell out, I don't think that they are the only ones to blame. May I point out in most societies with an independent and well functioning judiciary, it's not only a crime to accept a bribe - it's also a crime to offer a bribe.

On 3: I am not glorifying the Serb ex-leadership. It's just that my condemnation of that leadership is significantly less pronounced than it is in The Hague and some European capitals. Part of the reason is because we're bombarded with condemnation from 90% of MSM. We hear it all the time. Another reason is that I'm much more aware of "the other side of the story" than are most Europeans or Americans who have no links to Serbia and the Balkans.

On 4: The judicial system we've got in some European countries and The Hague in particular is not only imperfect, it's constructed on corrupt foundations. In Italy for example, it's an outright mockery. The judiciary needs to be independent financially and politically - and we all know the ICTY fails on both counts.

by vladimir on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 04:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Vladimir and vbo (none / 0)

Actually I got the impression from our resident Italians that the Italian judicial system is the only reasonably functioning part of Italian democracy. Which is why all the rest of the system is so hell-bent on making life difficult for it.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 05:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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