And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (none / 0)

Karadzic is a Bosnian Serb. He has been found guilty of war crimes by Western media... and will also be found guilty of war crimes by the Kangaroo Court in the Hague.

Can you give me a single example of a political prisoner and adversary who was acquitted by a court appointed by the ruling elite? Since Socrates till today? No.

So de facto, you are right. Karadzic is already a war criminal. De jure, your remarks are wrong.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

single example (4.00 / 7)

This do?

25th Ann. of Panther 21 Acquittal: Program in NYC

May 13, 1996 marks the 25th anniversary of the acquittal of the Panther 21, who in 1971 were the leadership of the eastern region of the Black Panther Party (BPP).
The Panther 21 were arrested in a pre-dawn raid on April 2, 1969 and charged with conspiracy to blow up the New York Botanical Gardens, department stores, etc. On May 13, 1971, after the longest political trial in New York's history, all 21 New York Panthers are acquitted of all charges in just 45 minutes of jury deliberation.
The acquittal of the Panther 21 was a major political setback and embarrassment for the Manhattan District Attorney's office and the New York Police intelligence unit known as BOSSI which extensively infiltrated and disrupted the BPP's community programs.

or this?

Iranian Political Prisoners Association - انجمن زندانیان سیاسی: The three Amirkabir University students acquitted

Majid Tavakoli, Ahmad Ghassaban, and EhsanMansouri, the three Amirkabir University students who are imprisoned on charges of publishing insulting articles to Islam, in the students chronicle , have been acquitted after 9 months of detention.

or this?

Political prisoner Sami Al-Arian's hunger strike enters third month

As Palestinian activist Sami Al-Arian's hunger strike reaches its 62nd day, family members and friends have expressed grave concerns for his health. A University of South Florida professor of computer science and engineering and outspoken critic of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, Dr. Al-Arian was arrested with three other men shortly after the September 11, 2001, attacks on sensational terrorism charges, and he has remained in US prison ever since. None of the charges against him has resulted in conviction...
The government finally took Al-Arian to court in June of 2005, but after a defense based entirely on Al-Arian's constitutional right to free speech, the jury acquitted him on 8 of 17 terrorism and conspiracy charges, deadlocking on the rest. In a major embarrassment for the government, juries also failed to convict any of Al-Arian's alleged co-conspirators with any crime.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 3)

Good examples. Point taken.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 2)

Also, check the list of the indictees of the ICTY, which is not a clean slate of every indicted Serb sentenced and every Croat or Bosniak or Kosovan acquitted.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:23:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 2)

Most prominently on the Serbian side: Milan Zec. However there is a rather obvious imbalance regarding the relative numbers of Serbs versus other nationalities both indicted and acquitted. I counted 107 Serbs out of 158 indicted in all of the FSRY. (Note the case of the indicted fictional character btw)...

However IMVHO, after Oric and Haradinaj, it's very difficult to claim that this court is impartial.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (4.00 / 3)

I don't think anyone here claims the court is impartial, only that the level of partisanship claimed by vladimir... goes too far.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: single example (none / 1)

Yes, agreed - and honestly, there were instances where individual prosecutors tried their best.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 2)

How is Karadzic a political prisoner? What are the charges against him?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 07:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Excerpts (4.00 / 4)

ATTACHMENT A

Between 1 July 1991 and 30 November 1995, Radovan KARADZIC, acting individually or in concert with others, including acting in concert with Momcilo KRAJISNIK and Biljana PLAVSIC between 1 July 1991 and 31 December 1992; participated in the below-charged crimes in order to secure control of those areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina which had been proclaimed part of the Serbian republic. Those areas include but are not limited to the municipalities of: Banja Luka; Bijeljina; Bileca; Bosanska Krupa; Bosanski Novi; Bosanski Petrovac; Bosanski Samac; Bratunac; Brcko; Cajnice; Celinac; Doboj; Donji Vakuf; Foca; Gacko; Hadzici; Ilidza; Ilijas; Jajce; Kljuc; Kalinovik; Kotor Varos; Nevesinje; Novi Grad; Novo Sarajevo; Pale; Prijedor; Prnjavor; Rogatica; Rudo; Sanski Most; Sekovici; Sipovo; Sokolac; Teslic; Trnovo; Visegrad; Vlasenica; Vogosca; Zavidovici; and Zvornik.
In order to achieve this objective, the Bosnian Serb leadership, including Radovan KARADZIC, and at relevant times Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC and others, initiated and implemented a course of conduct which included the creation of impossible conditions of life, involving persecution and terror tactics, that would have the effect of encouraging non-Serbs to leave those areas; the deportation of those who were reluctant to leave; and the liquidation of others.
Bosnian Serb forces including military, paramilitary, territorial defence and police units (hereafter Bosnian Serb forces), SDS and government authorities acting under the direction and control of Radovan KARADZIC, and at relevant times Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC and others, were engaged in a variety of actions to significantly reduce the Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat and other non-Serb populations of these municipalities.
From late March to 31 December 1992, Bosnian Serb forces seized physical control of the municipalities listed in Paragraph 9, often through violent attacks. These attacks and take-overs occurred in a co-ordinated and planned manner. Organisation and direction of the take-overs that occurred between late March and 31 December 1992 and the continuing acts of persecution and deportation that occurred up to 30 November 1995, in particular from the municipalities of Bijeljina, Banja Luka and the UN designated "safe area" of Srebrenica (hereafter Srebrenica enclave) and its surroundings, were provided by the SDS, military and police leadership, and the governing organs of Serb municipalities, including the Crisis Staffs, War Presidencies and War Commissions.
Between 1 April 1992 and 30 November 1995, Bosnian Serb forces were also engaged in a forty-four month attack of Sarajevo, which involved inflicting terror on persons living within Sarajevo.
Between 11 and 18 July 1995, Bosnian Serb forces killed thousands of Bosnian Muslim men, who had been captured in several different locations in and around the Srebrenica enclave.
By 30 November 1995, this course of conduct resulted in the death or forced departure of a significant portion of the Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat and other non-Serb groups from the municipalities listed in Paragraph 9 and in and around the Srebrenica enclave.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 08:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 0)

Hmm. Sound like there was a nasty war going on. Does that mean that if you fight and lose a war, you're a war criminal? Or are there some other 'universal' rules that exist and that were disregarded by Radovan Karadzic and his accomplices?

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:00:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 3)

Gotovina won a nasty war, yet he is under trial.

By your definition, there is no such thing as "war criminal".

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

You're right. Croatia did win the war - which is why their political and military leadership is - by and large - NOT being prosecuted for ethnically cleansing 250 000 Serbs from Krajina and Slavonia, or their tens of thousands of Serbian and Muslim victims.

Gotovina was an attempt to show that The Hague is not a biased court seeking to demonize Serbs, whereas the figures prove otherwise. The overwhelming majority of those tried and convicted are Serb.

Based on historic observation, a war criminal is almost always on the losing side.

Do you think that the British incineration of Cologne in WW2 was a crime? What about Nagasaki? What about the circa 700 000 dead in Iraq?

Unfortunately, it's always a question of power and politics... not justice.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:26:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

So are you saying that the Serbian Government is complicit in this demonisation process seeing as they are the ones handing him over to the ICTY?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 0)

I believe that given the Tribunal's outrageous acquittal of Haradinaj and Oric, the new government of Serbia is not serving justice by handing Karadzic over to The Hague.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 7)

Two injustices don't make one.

And for your information,

it was not the acquittal that was outrageous, but the lack of Western action (because it wasn't all in the Tribunals' power) to protect the witnesses whose non-appearance necessitated the acquittal,
the Haradinaj case is not over: the prosecutors are on appeal, and two Kosovo Albanians were indicted for contempt of court for organising the pressurizing of a witness.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 2)

Your argument re WWII leads logically to the conclusion that the Nazis were unfairly targeted, just like Karadzic. Do you really want to pursue the parallel?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 6)

The ICTY is imperfect, but your claim of one-sidedness goes way too far. Gotovina is not the only Croatian indictee (chech the list), but the highest-ranked. Unlike Milosević, Tuđman was dead by 1999 (the year Milo was indicted).

If you believe that an objective trial would have found equal numbers of suspected war criminals among the conflict sides, you have to prove that the war crimes were really equally shared. (It's not enough to prove that the Croatian, Bosniak and Kosovo Albanian sides committed war crimes, too.)

Your words about history are a diversion from the current case. But for your information, I do think that fire bombing by Britain was a war crime (even if there were far more more German war criminals in WWII, thus even an international war tribunal in place of Nuremburg should have shown similar ratios as the ICTY today), and so are nuclear bombs on cities.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:37:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

Croatia did not win this war.NATO did.Croatia was lucky this time to be on a winer side...this was not always case with Croatia.They joined Hitler in WWII but they jumped the winner's wagon toward the end of WWII.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:00:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 4)

re there some other 'universal' rules that exist and that were disregarded by Radovan Karadzic and his accomplices?

Well the charges would relate to the fourth Geneva convention from a brief view of them.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 14)

Or are there some other 'universal' rules that exist and that were disregarded by Radovan Karadzic and his accomplices?

Yes.

You're trying to rant at a crowd containing lots of people who would cheerfully drag Bush x 2, Blair, and a collection of EU leaders and a load of their minions into the same court for assorted war crimes. We'd also throw Putin in the dock, along with pretty much all the leaders in ex-Yugoslavia. You're not likely to get much sympathy for Karadzic. The problem is not that he's being prosecuted, it's that other people aren't.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 7)

I don't mean to rant. Just wanna share my pain.

by vladimir on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (none / 1)

great cpmment, colman.

everyone likes to see justice done....

to someone else...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 02:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excerpts (4.00 / 3)

the creation of impossible conditions of life, involving persecution and terror tactics...deportation...liquidation...inflicting terror...kill(ing) thousands...

of civilians don't come under any "universal rules" that you know of?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 5)

Hans Fritzsche, Franz von Papen, and Hjalmar Schacht at Nuremberg. From The Nation:

"[Pentagon general counsel Haynes] said these trials will be the Nuremberg of our time," recalled Davis, referring to the Nazi tribunals in 1945, considered the model of procedural rights in the prosecution of war crimes. In response, Davis said he noted that at Nuremberg there had been some acquittals, which had lent great credibility to the proceedings.
"I said to him that if we come up short and there are some acquittals in our cases, it will at least validate the process," Davis continued. "At which point, [Haynes's] eyes got wide and he said, 'Wait a minute, we can't have acquittals. If we've been holding these guys for so long, how can we explain letting them get off? We can't have acquittals. We've got to have convictions.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:20:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 4)

...and before someone misreads this, Haynes doesn't refer to the imperfect ICTY, but the perfectly illegitimate trials at Gitmo.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 09:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (4.00 / 2)

Thanks! I was paying too much attention to editing the quote to make clear who was speaking that I didn't notice that the wider context was missing...

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 01:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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