And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: And now that the West has Karadzic (none / 1)

OK. I get your point. The guy is no angel and he's certainly not on a poster in my bedroom.

Now here's the other side of the story:
Karadzic actually did more (much more - Lisbon for one) than Izetbegovic and all the fanatics around him to come to some sort of agreement and preserve peace. Imagine yourself in 1991 - You've got Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban at home and Tudjman, Joschka Fisher & Paul II next door. NATO is sharpening its kitchen knives. Guess who the target is. All your neighbours (Except Milosevic) are breathing fire down your spine and promising you Hell...

My point is simple: when Hell breaks lose, it's just that: Hell. I've never been in a comparable situation but I do know that when someone pushes me, I push back.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 03:21:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

1990 (4.00 / 3)

In 1990, I was a 21 year old in Africa. My father was ambassador, which gave me a fantastic opportunity to hang around some interesting people. During one dinner party organized by my father, at which the German ambassador was invited, the discussion got lively by the time desert was finished (and a couple of bottles had disappeared). The German ambassador was questioning my father on the Belgrade's repressive policies in Kosovo (where at the time, if you recall, the BND was arming and training KLA terrorists). After having exhausted his arguments defending Yugoslav policies in the area my father asked His Excellency: "What do you Germans want in Yugoslavia?". The response, in 1990, was chilling: "8 independent republics..." he said "and if the Serbs don't acquiesce, they'll suffer".

So, was Karadzic a mastermind of evil? Or was he answering violence with violence? As I said in my posts above, you're a freedom-fighter, a resistant, a hero if you win & a tyrant, a terrorist and a blood thirsty killer if you lose.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 03:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

It was ALL PLANNED way way before.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 04:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

When, Why, and by who?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 04:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

You couldn't possibly be insinuating that Germany had nothing to do with the breakup of Yugoslavia. Could you?

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

So you are saying that the Schröder government and Clinton executed Kohl's plans?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

I'm saying that Germany haad a significant role in the violent breakup of Yugoslavia. Through financing, arming and training KLA terrorists and Croatian nationalists. It's well documented. It's a fact. Period.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

That may well be, but insufficient to prove "it was all planned in advance". It's separate elements may have been planned in advance, but I don't have the impression of a particularly prescient operation.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 06:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

Um, the Iraq adventure was also "planned in advance" with no "prescience" whatsoever.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:16:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

All the same, would you say "It was ALL PLANNED way way before" even for the Iraq War?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 3)

No, but if you said "the US establishment has wanted/planned to destroy Iraq for 20 years" it would be hard to argue the point.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

As a corollary, it is not entirely clear to me what and why the German establishment wanted in Yugoslavia. If it wasn't just the coincidental succession of a pro-Catholic-countries Christian Democrat mindset and opportunistic take-us-seriously center-left Atlanticism (with some successful 'taming' of the Young Wild One by Albright).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 04:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

what was the payoff for germany to do this?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 03:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 0)

political influence
economic influence and financial gain

by vladimir on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 04:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

No I'm saying if you know it was planned, who planned it, when did they plan it and what did they hope to get out of it?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 07:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

I don't know if and when it was planed but it looks only logical. After the fall of USSR the new world order started to take place. As we all know all other Eastern Europeans were now put gently in NATO's lap. It was expected from Yugoslavia too. But there was a problem with Milosevic. It still is a puzzle for me what was it that Milosevic expected to make in lousy situation we were in. There was no Russia (it was on its knees with Yelcin on his drunken back) and he even wrongly supported Yelcin's enemies. So nothing to expect from Russia and he was still "pocking Empire in its eye" systematically. Man was a disaster for unfortunate Serbia. It's only natural that westerners did what they did...armed and financed rebellion against Milosevic. Empire (with western vassals) always did that around the globe when ever they had a problem with "dictators" that wouldn't surrender to it's "policy". They are doing it as we speak. The thing is because it was a European matter Europeans were deeply involved in it. Especially Germany and especially in Croatia. Who do you think "privatized" (bought) everything valuable in Croatia? Talking about reward...But I don't think that ex YU was that much interesting as a market at the time...it was geo-strategically issue. Who's military bases will be on the ground. And we now know who they are. What do you think ex YU would look like now if Milosevic choose to give a free ride to Empire (NATO)?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 10:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (4.00 / 2)

Actually, according to some counter-intelligence sources in YU at the time, Milosevic offered the US entry into NATO as early as 1990. This offer was refused.

Political theories as to who planned it, how and why are abundant. Books have been written on the issue and it has also been debated on ET on a number of occasions.

No, it clearly wasn't a "smooth operation" and numerous contingency plans were certainly worked out and implemented as the play unfolded. But to anyone who closely follows the YU wars of "independence" it is more than clear that Germany, the Vatican and later the United States were heavily involved - not as peace makers but as self-serving antagonists.

Once this belligerent outside intervention (that started in the 80's) is established, the question that springs to mind is: was the Bosnian Serb leadership the internal aggressor or the international victim? The same question is pertinent for Slobodan Milosevic.

by vladimir on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 02:00:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

"Actually, according to some counter-intelligence sources in YU at the time, Milosevic offered the US entry into NATO as early as 1990. This offer was refused."
----------
If this is true then something really unacceptable for Empire was attached to it...
Looks like many of western politicians of that time cashed their activity but I still can't believe that it all was about private interest...but who knows...
What do you think was the reason for this refusal (if it happened) and those western plans (if they existed)???

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:42:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

Surely it must have been. Joschka Fischer was nowhere near the government back then.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

You're right. I confused Fischer's role in Kosovo and Hans-Dietrich Genscher's in Bosnia.

by vladimir on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 05:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1990 (none / 1)

If I remember correctly, Milosevic suspended the autonomy of both Vojvodina and Kosovo around 1900, so it wasn't just Kosovo and its terrorists.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:14:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And now that the West has Karadzic | 68 comments (68 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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