America:Cars, Suburbia, and Conspicuous Consumption | 72 comments (72 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Our DL considers the pinnacle of civilization a hot shower.

Wait, are you claiming it might be, you heretic?

I've mentioned this before: from the point of view of the middle class, busses are dirty and for the poor, but trains are acceptable for the middle class.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 04:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 1)

I think that we'd be amazed at the good that a campaign that showed a few celebrities taking the bus, and getting local notables to take the bus in cities would do to change that.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 04:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 1)

I don't think it would do anything, other than give Faux News an opportunity to use the term "Hollywood liberal" a few times before going back to blaming speculators or Mexicans or whatever new bogeyman the assholes have come up with this week.

Nothing's going to change in any significant way with fluffy pitches from Madison Ave. It might give a few people a warm, fuzzy feeling to have the knowledge that they're "doing their part" or something, but it's meaningless without a fundamental shift in people's understanding of the possible and necessary with an eye toward the future. The only way people are going to swallow their pride and take the damned bus is by making the cars too expensive.

Which is why we should be raising gas taxes to push people that way, and using the money for subsidies and projects out in places where there's no alternative.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 04:54:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 1)

In Confucius Lives Next Door journalist T.R. Reid tells the story of living in Tokyo and being constantly surprised by the signs encouraging socially beneficial behavior. He asked himself, "Does this mean that the Japanese have to constantly be minded to make them do right?"

In the end he concluded the opposite, in "Western" cultures we focus more on punishing bad behavior through social sanction giving people the idea that everyone is cheating and only idiots don't do so. By reinforcing good behavior the Japanese get better outcomes that we in the West do by punishing bad behavior. Because everyone always hears about what was done right.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 05:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 1)

And that's fine, but I seem to recall Asian nations using such positive reinforcement mechanisms as thousand-dollar fines for littering, bans on chewing gum, and use of forced labor to shame those guilty of antisocial behavior. Which isn't to say that actual positive reinforcement doesn't play a role, but Reid strikes me as being simply infatuated with Confucianism more than anything.

Nothing against Confucianism, but I suspect it is, in typical journamalist fashion, a shallow, Tom-Friedman-goes-to-Infosys take.

It also sounds a bit similar to the old line from the 1980s about magical Japanese business techniques that would leave the rest of the world in the dust. But, while the Japanese do a lot of things really well (you'll find I'm a big cheerleader for their automotive work), it didn't quite work out that way.

And, in any event, I'm willing to bet that making the gas too expensive will do a lot more to move people in the right direction than a Lindsey Lohan poster.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jul 8th, 2008 at 07:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 0)

in "Western" cultures we focus more on punishing bad behavior through social sanction giving people the idea that everyone is cheating and only idiots don't do so.

I don't know about that. Do you remember the campaigns against roadside littering and the use of seat belts and child seats. Sure there are sanctions, but I believe it was conscience and constant reminders that created the changes in behavior. (I know that these days littering has returned, but is it because of punishment,the lack of enforcement or just because there are no more ads?)

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 03:56:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In Perth, when they re-opened their ... (4.00 / 2)

... train system, including extending the line to newly established suburbs that it had not originally serviced before it was closed, they integrated local bus routes with the train ... and found that people would take a short bus "to catch the train".

See, that's a good excuse, because it saves the hassle of parking at the train station.

... but actually taking the bus all the way somewhere ... that's for losers.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 10:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 0)

Wait, are you claiming it might be, you heretic?

Almost. I prefer a hot bath...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 04:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 0)

Gah, that should have been "might not be."

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 at 05:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (4.00 / 3)

The hot shower featured prominently in Nomad's writings about sustainability and civilisation:

It's remarkable how little one really needs for hiking in the bush. Good shoes and a proper backpack are half the enjoyment. A good bed-bunk and a hot meal at the end of the day: also important. Practical tools: a hat, a pocketknife, a compass. But the one thing everyone, bar none, craves for after 2 days of hiking: a hot shower. I can only conclude that showering (or bathing) has become part of who we are. We can no longer go without.

After diverse other accidents, he was sitting freezing in a bus stop in a town a day's ride from Paris, when a hippie came by, and told him: "Why don't you come with me & stay at the farm of my uncle for the night? There is hot shower!" (My friend: "In those days, I didn't dream of girls or something, I dreamt of a hot shower!" -- Nomad's rule of Civilised Luxury No. 1 seems to hold.)

what are the bare bones in today's society? So I drew up a shopping list. It is not that different than DeAnander's list, and I used my South African experience to re-evaluate and Africanise my nomadic wish-list from Sweden.
...
Heating:
Hot water - for my shower and my shave

I favour the approach of smart and sexy solutions with the corporation of certain western commodities and privileges. Clean water, a warm house, a hot shower with the push of a button - why should we not be trying to preserve those at first? Once we fail to do that, perhaps DeAnander's return-to-innocence scenario might play out. But I'm unwilling to move straigh there as long as there is the chance to opt for the first scenario.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 8th, 2008 at 06:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: status and smell (none / 1)

Hot showers are no so much about getting clean and fresh as being nakedly sensual and feeling happy. I guess most people feel happy in a hot shower - that's why some of us sing.

I read of a judge who retired to chambers for a shower before any difficult summing up. It was not ritualized cleansing - he said that free-roaming shower meditation brought him perspective.

In Finland, the sauna has a very special role. The shower (or swim in the lake, sea or pool) after sauna is part of the ritual, but the main event is sitting naked with others in 80 deg C semi-darkness and staring at a few hot stones on top of the stove.

Being naked with your friends is an affirmation of closeness and openness. In business saunas (quite frequent occurences) the hierarchy is reversed or levelled - the older guys higher up the ladder are tubby and out of shape, the younger guys trimmer. Stripped of the badges and trappings of status, the conversations are open, friendly, listening and cooperative. IMO the business sauna plays quite a big role in the comparative equitability of Finnish business people.

BTW mixed business saunas are rare, but I've hear the women's versions are even more levelling across the age spread.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

America:Cars, Suburbia, and Conspicuous Consumption | 72 comments (72 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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