Odds & Ends: 99 Luftballons Edition | 85 comments (82 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)

Ok let's disband NATO.

Oh wait. That's right. You and I have no say in this decision.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:54:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (4.00 / 2)

no, but we can babble meaninglessly on the toobs...it's that lovely Freedom^TM

enough of us come to our senses, someone Very Serious will see it and change their mind, maybe?

this message in a bottle brought to you by last chance cafe enterprises...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 11:55:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (4.00 / 3)

How do you know I have no say - what do you really know about me anyway ;)

I have no problem with pushing for something to happen that I think should happen even if I think it won't happen. And I see no real purpose to NATO anymore.

The US gets nothing out of NATO that it couldn't get with decent diplomacy. The US made clear after 9/11 that it doesn't need or want any NATO countries coming to its defense if it is attacked. The effort in Afghanistan exists by negotiation anyway. If the first George Bush had been president instead of his idiot son, the entire world would be in Afghanistan helping there with or without NATO existing. So the only thing the US gets is the ability to pretend (at this point) to have some control over Europe. Isn't Europe tired of that at this point? Isn't Europe unlikely to engage in massive early-20th century style wars again? And can't Europe do it's own combined defense against external threats (including Russia) without needing us there? I think so.

You may think disbanding NATO won't happen, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be pushing for it.

Now ... maybe you like NATO. I don't know. I couldn't tell from your response.

by Maryb2004 on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 05:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 1)

Now ... maybe you like NATO. I don't know. I couldn't tell from your response.

If it hasn't been clear from just about every comment and diary I have written here, I am firmly, absolutely, unabashedly opposed to NATO.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 05:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (4.00 / 2)

heh. I don't think that response was nearly emphatic enough. :)

by Maryb2004 on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 06:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 1)

:D

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 06:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 0)

So the only thing the US gets is the ability to pretend (at this point) to have some control over Europe. Isn't Europe tired of that at this point? Isn't Europe unlikely to engage in massive early-20th century style wars again? And can't Europe do it's own combined defense against external threats (including Russia) without needing us there? I think so.

Go, read the comments in this diary from MarekNYC, then you know, why (eastern) Europeans need NATO and why western Europeans thereby can't tell the US to get out, even of they wanted to.

There is no reason to believe that at current levels of armorisation, even French and German military would be enough to defend Europe against Russia, not to speak of the rest of the 3 times such big EU. Eastern Europeans will go nuts, when the US dissolves NATO, independent if the EU has a stronger army than Russia.
With the history of the 20th century, would you, if you were a Pole, be happy to depend on the German military to secure your country from a Russian invasion?
OTOH, if western Europeans will throw out the US, the eastern Europeans will cease the EU to function very well. Dissolving NATO is an issue to be done by the US, not by Europeans.
And while you are right, that George Bush 41 would most likely have managed to get international support for Afghanistan without NATO, his son would not have managed. NATO thereby insures, that the US doesn't need to invest presidential brain cells in foreign policy to have a mercenary army. That's good for the US, as most recent history puts in doubt, if all US presidents always will have spare brain cells.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 06:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 0)

I mean the comments of Marek in the diary of Frank..., just if it isn't clear in the above statement...

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 06:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 1)

Aw, now you're talking about Russian invasions like they're a bad thing!

;)

</ducks, runs>

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 at 06:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (4.00 / 3)

My point is that NATO should have been dissolved in the 1990's. Eastern Europeans weren't even a part of NATO at that time. So the idea that they would be upset by this doesn't move me at all. They may need something like NATO but it was a huge mistake to let them into NATO. NATO should have been dissolved - but instead everyone treated it like a defense version of the EU with everyone begging to get in. If the countries of Europe want to have a mutual defense treaty, that's up to them. If they don't have the military to support it then maybe they need to allocate more resources to that.

I don't think a decision to dissolve NATO needs to be an immediate decision. Certainly it can be decided in advance to give Europe time to prepare and increase current levels.

You think Bush II wouldn't have gotten support to go after Al Qaeda after 9/11. I disagree. For afghanistan even that idiot would have gotten support. No one doubted that Al Qaida was in Afghanistan. Remember ... most of the world didn't know what an idiot he was when 9/11 happened. That became clear later.

by Maryb2004 on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 at 12:29:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 0)

My point is that NATO should have been dissolved in the 1990's.
It wasn't clear from your initial comment, that you spoke exclusively about the 90s. Actually your use of present tense was for me an indication, that you were even predominantly speaking about today.

If the countries of Europe want to have a mutual defense treaty, that's up to them. If they don't have the military to support it then maybe they need to allocate more resources to that.
We are already overmilitarised compared with realistic need, or at least sufficiently armored. You speak of the countries of Europe. Thereby my comment distinguishes between different EU countries. Never occured to you, that there are drastic differences between the interests of different countries in Europe. I think it will be to Europe'a advantage, when NATO is dissolved, but it is the US which has to announce it, for reasons given in my comment.

Seriously, have you read my comment before hitting the reply button?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 at 04:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 1)

Seriously? Yes. Did you read your comment?

You said:

There is no reason to believe that at current levels of armorisation, even French and German military would be enough to defend Europe against Russia, not to speak of the rest of the 3 times such big EU.

But now you say:

We are already overmilitarised compared with realistic need, or at least sufficiently armored.

I suggest you pick one story and stick with it.

Yes I know that different countries have different interests. I'm tired of that being an excuse for why the United States needs to be involved. Figure it out among yourselves. Stop waiting for the US to take the lead in everything - including the future of NATO.

by Maryb2004 on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 01:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 0)

Oops, sorry, in the first statement a "not" is missing, otherwise the sentence and the comment is inconsistent.
Now I understand part of the confusion. But the point remains, that there are serious differences in the interests of European nations.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 09:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Defending Poland (none / 1)

I think that Germany and France would (i) step in to defend Poland and (ii) be capable of doing it should Russia be crazy enough to make a military attack.

Now that Poland does believe it or trust it to happen is another thing.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 at 05:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Defending Poland (none / 0)

That's good to hear. Because if France and Germany were unwilling to do that, then NATO as a more than half-century project would have to be considered a spectacular failure.

by Maryb2004 on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 01:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 1)

So you're saying the European nations are totally incapable of looking to their own defense, and must ally themselves with the USA forever, because the USA alone has the strength to ward off the Russian tank armies. The ones that are never coming...

As far as I can see, the only point of NATO is to prevent an effective economic and military union of European nations sufficient to guarantee their independence. That, and allow the USA to subvert the UN and international law whenever the whim bites.

Down with NATO, sez I. And Canada should join the EU.

(where's my bucket of pixi-dust?)

by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 at 10:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 1)

Here probably the same misunderstanding. My first comment misses a "not". The core point isn't that Europeans aren't able to defend their continent, but that there are some feuds inside Europe, which undermine the exclusion of the US.

Funny thing is, Canada is member of the ESA. So at least with regard to space travel, Canada is already stronger allied with Europe than with the US.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 09:38:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 99 Luftballons Edition (none / 1)

Sorry, Martin, if I misunderstood you. I'm finding lately that my comments are missing whole words, even entire sentences that I apparently typed while in some alternate universe. Maybe, someone should ask me to draw a clock at halb-twei.

by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Odds & Ends: 99 Luftballons Edition | 85 comments (82 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)

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