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That's an excessively broad definition. Protectionism of necessity involves protecting some domestic industry. But there are plenty of import restrictions - on both financial products and stuff - that are justified on grounds that have nothing to do with protecting domestic interests.

A blanket ban on GMO crops, for instance, would be protectionism under your definition. But clearly, that conclusion is absurd - a blanket ban on GMO crops is an agricultural and environmental policy; the fact that it is applied to foreign farmers as well as your own country's does not magically turn it into a protectionist measure.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 at 08:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A blanket ban on GMO crops because domestic agriculture can not compete against them (cost, aesthetics, lack of technology, whatever) would be protectionist.  A blanket ban for safety and health reasons would not (although safety and health a often trotted out to mask protectionism).  Either way, simply labeling it "agricultural policy" does not make a distinction.  Much (most?) agricultural policy is protectionist.

More to the point, I didn't say what you say I said.  If a country blocks another from obtaining capital from within its jurisdiction so that it can preserve that capital for domestic use, how is that not protectionist?

by rifek on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 at 11:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For the same reason that preventing the Calabrian mafia from setting up shop in your jurisdiction would not be protectionism. That also deprives a foreign company from doing business on your turf. The foreign company in question happens, however, to be a kind of company that you don't want on your turf, and have quite legitimate reasons to not want on your turf.

It only becomes protectionism when you are shielding a genuinely inefficient industry - i.e. an industry that has no hope of ever being competitive on the merits - from foreign competition. Using barriers to trade to enforce certain standards is not protectionism - domestic industry is not given an advantage, it's merely protected from being put at an unfair disadvantage.

Finally, the financial system is not an industry in the conventional sense of the term - it is so tightly bound to the political process that it makes more sense to treat is as a utility than an industry. So the logic that applies to the financial sector is not the logic that applies to steel or ball bearings or wine - the closest analogy is the logic that applies to railroads and water supply.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 05:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As nearly as I can tell, the neolibs (neocons here, Chicago School) have advocated free flow of capital on efficiency grounds.

Let's get this out of the realm of health and crime for a second.  Farawaystan is swimming in cash from the gas reserves it's sitting on.  Beyond that it doesn't have much of an economy traditional agriculture, mostly herding.  The US has regularly milked this cash cow to finance its deficits.  Neolibs would argue that this is a correct result because it is more efficient for Farawaystan to invest in the US than at home (Let's set aside for the time being the obvious bias for developed markets.  It isn't as though I were advocating that position.).

Now the people of Farawaystan decide they want to keep more of their money at home for domestic projects (Pick any element of the Farawaystan economy, and you'll find it at a competitive disadvantage because of inadequate education, transportation, communication, etc.  Even the gas industry fears that, if there were a decrease in demand, Farawaystan's fields would be the first ones shut down.).  So they cut back the amount that can be loaned to the US.

The US now can't sell as much of its product (Treasury securities) as it could, so capital in the US decreases as surely as it would if we were talking about manufactured goods.  As the capital shrinks, the plants start cutting back just as surely as if Farawaystan had slapped a tariff on US products, because none of the plants operates on current accounts.  Then there will be the inevitable noise in the media and Congress for retaliation against Farawaystan, just as though it had imposed a tariff or embargo.  As I have said elsewhere, if it quacks like a duck....

Concerning your last paragraph, you've raised a couple of points that don't apply very well in the US.  The financial industry is very political, but all industry is very political here.  Charles Wilson, then president of General Motors, once said that what was good for GM was good for the US.  While the auto industry may not have that kind of pull any more, the defense industry (which is ubiquitous here) doesn't even have to ask; it has the government on a leash.  As for utilities and railroads, they're largely private industries here.

Returning to the main point, I think the restriction of capital flows to the US will be imposed at least in part for protectionist reasons (It will be couched in health, safety, and national security terms, but all protectionist policies are.), will trigger protectionist reactions, and will cause protectionist results.  If for whatever reason you don't like "protectionist", then it must be viewed as "quasi-protectionist".

by rifek on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 09:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"it has the government on a leash"

Understatement of the year.

by asdf on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 10:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Choke chain"?
by rifek on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 10:07:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But selling Treasuries isn't "selling a product" - it's signing an I.O.U. And in a world with completely rigid capital controls (probably not desirable, but useful as an example), Farawaystan wouldn't be sitting on a vault full of cash. It would be sitting on a pile of stuff - because if capital can't move from one country to another, you'd have to eventually buy stuff with your export earnings.

Of course, from the US point of view, balanced trade would be a disaster, because it would mean having to pay in real stuff - ball bearings, rubber, steel, integrated circuits - instead of just blithely issuing I.O.U.s. But that doesn't make it "protectionist."

OTOH, it's entirely possible that I simply don't get it - I find the whole monetary system pretty confusing, which is why I like to think of the economy in terms of stuff getting produced, moved around and used.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 11:25:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... not in Northeast Ohio. Having to pay for imports with stuff made in the US would be a win/win, with both new work for domestic markets and new work for markets overseas due to the exporters exchange rate.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 02:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... that is, the loanable funds fallacy:
The US now can't sell as much of its product (Treasury securities) as it could, so capital in the US decreases as surely as it would if we were talking about manufactured goods.  As the capital shrinks, the plants start cutting back just as surely as if Farawaystan had slapped a tariff on US products, because none of the plants operates on current accounts.

It conflates plant and equipment (a.k.a. "real capital") ... productive capacity ... with financial obligations. But financial capital is not like plant and equipment in being technically necessary for production, rather it is part of the institutional system for determining control of production.

Its very convenient for the interests of transnational corporations to conflate financial capital with plant and equipment as if the former was part of the requisite resources for production, rather than being part of the current rules of the game for who gets to say how resources are deployed.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 12:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People confuse wealth and the measurement of wealth all the time.  The neo-libs, with their Positivist bias, have risen this to a Fine Art.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 01:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... "real capital" and "financial capital" in class altogether, and just say plant and equipment versus financial assets.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 05:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
because you cannot control their spread into other crops (which is what happens each time) is health and safety policy, not protectionnism.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 05:34:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What would happen to the Eurozone if Italy instituted capital controls?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 05:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... instituted capital controls?

The appropriate boundary for capital controls is not somewhere inside the domestic zone for a currency. When y'all decided to go for a common currency, you kind of limited your freedom of action in terms of independent monetary policy actions of all sorts below the Eurozone level.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 05:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was sort of my point, but Jerome kept pretending Italy could institute capital controls if they had the political will...

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 05:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... to re-institute the Lira, and I doubt that is going to happen.

Capital controls at the boundary of the Eurozone would be hard enough ... but when bona-fide domestic Euro credit money can be created in Frankfort and spent in Florence, its hard to impose effective capital controls.

It might be an "Italian Euro" that the monetary authorities in Italy work hard to maintain at parity with the real Euro, but capital controls in the sense of the kind of controls imposed by Malaysian after the Asian Financial Crisis, or in the sense of the capital controls in force today in China ... is at its heart controlling foreign exchange transactions. If I borrow Euros in Germany and spend them in Italy, that's not a foreign exchange transaction. If Italy imposes the regulatory framework that makes it work like one, its de facto left the Eurozone.

Inside an Economic Union it would be hard enough ... the narrowest "straightforward" boundary for Italian capital controls is the European Union.

In a conventional Free Trade Area, it would be fairly straightforward, but of course the US "FTA"s are conventional Free Trade Areas in name only ... they are mostly agreements on eliminating capital controls in return for trade access to the US market, though dressed up as bilateral removal of capital controls and bilateral trade access. So capital controls in the US context would basically be reneging on the FTAs. But since most of them are not passed as Treaties in any event, there's the institutional freedom to renege on them if we want to.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 06:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interestingly I read today that one reason why the Italian financial community has been less hurt by the global fuck-ups, is poor English skills ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 06:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... "I'm sorry, I don't understand, could you explain that in Italian?" "Sorry, I still don't understand, it sounds like you are telling me I am first in line to pick which line I stand at the end of, I do not see why I should buy that tiered CDO you are selling. I will jus' wait an' see."


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 06:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Precisely. 'Ignorance is bliss' personified...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 13th, 2009 at 06:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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