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It's good to hear something like this...
But do they care? Tonight I saw on TV smiling faces of Israeli solders making "victory" signs...
I never was able to understand that...and during Balkan wars of 90s when ever I saw smiling face of a solder coming from " battle" I felt sorry for him...I knew he is not normal (in his mind) any more...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jan 19th, 2009 at 08:58:24 AM EST
 

when ever I saw smiling face of a solder coming from "battle" I felt sorry for him...I knew he is not normal (in his mind) any more...

You didn't "know" it - you assumed it, and it seems a bit harsh. Cf.:

soldiers-celebrate-fall-sarbrucken

http://www.files.trailblazersww2.org/division_photos_page1.htm

 These US soldiers are celebrating the fall of Saarbrucken in 1945. Smiling is a pretty natural reaction, it's probably  relief at still being alive - and maybe to not having to kill.

Laughing is also a way of coping in war, you might be surprised by the context of this photo:

73572400JM006_British_Hold_

AFGHANISTAN - MARCH 15: British soldiers celebrate the lives of fallen comrades by sharing personal stories following a memorial service March 15, 2007 in Kajaki, Afghanistan. Helmand province . British troops gathered on a mountaintop observation post to honor three British soldiers killed by Taliban attacks in Afghanistan. L/Bdr Russ Clark, L/Bdr Liam McLaughlin and Sgt. Major Mick Smith died in the first week of March, a week that saw a total of four British soldiers killed in combat operations in Helmand. (Photo by John Moore/Getty Images)

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0gvo4QS5mFgPy



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Jan 19th, 2009 at 10:51:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am sorry, but I don't think anyone who ever KILLED even ONE person (willingly or not willingly) can be normal again. I am not saying he is insane, but he is definitely not the person he was prior to killing.
And for me, there is no excuse for killing. None. I can only understand that people are pushed to defend their selves and their families once someone else COMES to their "door" to actually kill them. Even then they can't stay "normal" all though it's easier for them to cope morally then for attacker (occupier)...
I know it is all much more complex and especially men have different approach to war...
We were in shock when during Bosnian war of 90s a family of relatives of my husband came to visit us in Belgrade. Young wife of that relative came fully dressed with full make up on her. And she was in Belgrade to shop for clothes. It was like there is no war there where they came from (Bosnia).People just use to the situation. Our friend's wife (from Serbia) was totally in panic when Milosevic took him to the Army and sent him on Vukovar ( Croatia). She couldn't sleep, or eat...and probably did not bother to even "wash her face in the morning" let alone put make up...
But I remember also they told us when a 3 years old girl that came with family from Bosnia saw city lights she said "Mum, look, lighting bullets" cause that was the only light she had seen. I don't know if this girl will be "normal" as she would be if she did not experience war in her early childhood...
War is terror...nothing to smile about...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jan 19th, 2009 at 08:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I totally agree with you.  I don't even think that all of us are 'normal' anymore, given what we learn is going on everyday.  We are continually constrained by a natural 'defense/survival mechanism' to put aside the horror we cannot accept, while we feel individually helpless to change it.

Anecdotal photos of joy at the end of fighting only represent a few moments and are not the real-life consequences that pervade the lives of fighters and society during and after war.  Most people cannot face that reality and limit their world view to what they can handle.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 08:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is "normal" - and when do you think people enjoyed this state and when did we lose it ?


Anecdotal photos of joy at the end of fighting only represent a few moments and are not the real-life consequences that pervade the lives of fighters and society during and after war.

Obviously - did you seriously think I was using them to argue the absurd view that if they were smiling then they would be OK after the war ? (see the quotation in my comment above). My point was - pretty clearly I think - that smiling after combat was a quite understandable immediate reaction and not a sign of abnormality. The photo of Brit troops laughing at the funeral of a comrade doesn't indicate that they have been dehumanised, but that shared laughter can be a way of coping with grim circumstances, cf. Irish wakes, at which it is also the custom to share memories of the dead person, some of them humourous. Whether the Brit troops will be psychologically damaged when they return by their general experience in Afghanistan is another matter (see the quotation above again).

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 The quotation is in the comment below.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You've changed your point - I was objecting to your emphasis on the smiling:


Tonight I saw on TV smiling faces of Israeli solders making "victory" signs...
I never was able to understand that...and during Balkan wars of 90s when ever I saw smiling face of a solder coming from " battle" I felt sorry for him...

I was saying that in fact it is NOT hard to understand such smiling - it's relief at being out of it and being alive - and not in itself a sign that they are not "normal" - whatever that is.

Of course war can damage people - to varying degrees, but it's important to remember that not all people in the military are in the front line and not even all of those kill others. Of course, for those who do, or witness it, it can be traumatic:


A nationwide, long-term study of Vietnam veterans -- now entering its third phase -- concluded that one-third of combat soldiers returned emotionally wounded. After the 1991 Persian Gulf War, about 10 percent of the troops suffered distress from a conflict that was much briefer and less intense.

Given the confusing, urban ambush-style fighting in this Iraq campaign, experts predict trauma levels closer to Vietnam's.

...

Fifteen years after being discharged, the post-Vietnam study shows, 15 percent of veterans still suffered from PTSD, the most serious of trauma reactions.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3030.htm

It doesn't advance understanding merely to assert that all soldiers return not "normal" - especially when merely based on seeing some of them smile.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
During NATO bombardment of Belgrade in 1999 a lot of people actually refused to go to shelters or basements after few days and they started to "have parties". Not being able to work much they visited each other constantly, drunk heavily, and pretended that nothing is happening. But it's not healthy behavior. It's not normal reaction.
I couldn't get my brother to send his three sons ( 10, 8 and 6 at the time) out of the country till bomb exploded at the next city block...When I argued that children will  be psychologically damaged he would say " No, they sleep during bombardment time"...He was in denial...
What is normal? Hard question. Having to shoot  another man or be afraid that he will shoot you doesn't sound like normal part of one's life.
Then again, it is complex...Not everyone can be surgeon/operator , and stay normal...I am not saying they who kill in war are all insane...but they are not their "old" selves any more...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 12:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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