EREC EU policy conference | 53 comments (53 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

Dodo, I just remembered talking to someone working in Paris on the extension of a subway line. She said they were moving forward at the rate of 1m per 3 weeks, iirc.

How large of an impact can geology have?

At the end of the day, my question is how fast can demand for mobility channelled to new public transportation. If anyone has any idea...

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 04:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

The work on the Gotthard Base Tunnel gets up to 40m per day. I doubt there is anything geologically comparable in Paris, though you obviously have other problems, such as not to disrupt everything around you.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 05:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

Up to, but even on average, multiple meters certainly. You can actually check advance reports:

Project organisator AlpTransitGotthard has a monthly update. It isn't awfully detailed, though: no October data for one of the two pairs of still active attacks, the one from Sedrun to the South (they only report the passing of the originally planned meeting point of the final two tunneling attacks, which was moved South by 1.7 km); and daily averages of 12.4 resp. 14.8 m for the pair of attacks from Faido to the North.
For Sedrun, the contractor's progress report is not much help, either, but in the reports from 2007, you find earlier averages of 6-6.5 m for this (blast-excavated) pair of attacks, and data for the geologically most difficult section of the entire tunnel (a zone of fractured, expanding rock North of Sedrun): traversed at 1.4-1.5 m/day.
For the Faido tunnel boring machines, there is also the contractor's semi-regular weekly report (showing a progress of 110.9 resp. 73.5 m in the two tubes).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 06:07:49 AM EST
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Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

The website still talks about Cisalpino trains. Any idea whether the end of Cisalpino will have any effect on the technology?

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 06:12:47 AM EST
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Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

None at all.

Cisalpino's trains are to continue to be run by SBB resp. FS.
Even if the new ETR610 Pendolinos continue to be troubled, no tilt technology needed in the NEAT tunnels.
If the ETR610 are retired for whatever reason, what could be a result is that there will be no need for 250 km/h 'paths' [e.g. schedule slots], which would increase tunnel capacity. However, opening of the tunnels is still so far away that new 250 km/h capable trains could be purchased by then. (Or, who knows, some other operator -- DB, SNCF, Italy's new private NTV -- might request extended runs acorss the tunnel for their proper high-speed trains.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 06:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

For the Faido tunnel boring machines, there is also the contractor's semi-regular weekly report (showing a progress of 110.9 resp. 73.5 m in the two tubes).

...and you get averages for the entire Faido tunnels (including weeks-long stops for vacations and maintenance) of 9.44 resp. 9.04 m/day. (So the final holing-through can be expected in the first half of 2011.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 06:13:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

rate of 1m per 3 weeks, iirc.

That slow would be possible across a problem zone, and even then only with long stops. 100m in 3 weeks would be more like it under a city like Paris, or even multiples of that.

Nowadays, unless facing unexpected geological problems (see the ill-fated North-South metro across Amsterdam), tunnel boring itself is not even the majority of the time of construction: there is surveying before, and elaborate tunnel fitting afterwards, and then track commissioning. For example, Paris's line 14 was dug for two years (at a rate of 350m/month), but opened three and a half years after tunnel boring was finished.

how fast can demand for mobility channelled to new public transportation

That's too broad a question... always depends on local circumstances, and what you mean by "channelled to new public transportation". (Do you mean how long it takes for inhabitants to switch to a new project? Or how long it would take to get a majority of them to switch to public transport? Or 100%?)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 05:31:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

Indeed, this is too broad a question. I ask it the light of the RES directive objective of 10% RE in transportation. It is clear that such a penetration of RE will be possible only if overall fuel consumption of the transportation sector diminishes.

Since we know that demand for mobility is unlikely to decrease, the only solution a shift towards vastly more efficiency transportation systems -- public transportation. But then the time constraint kicks in, hence my earlier remark on subway/tramway line construction times.

I don't know what to think about this, given, as you said, how central political commitment is. The point is not really to forecast what may take place but to understand what is actually possible if there is a strong political will. Madrid, seems to be a clear case. What impact can we expect overall?

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 06:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

I note Madrid is an example for strong political will resulting in quick construction -- however, unfortunately, it is also an example of no priority in a shift to public transport. At the same time subway construction accelerated, road construction ran amok, too, with the result that the modal shift didn't change much -- while overall traffic increased.

Now, 10% renewables in transport? How exactly is that spelled out in the directives? On the face of it, that would require (1) a much more than 10% share of electric public transport in overall transport, and/or (2) a rather significant share of RE in the generation of that electricity. Now, in some countries, hydro takes a major part of railway electricity generation, don't know about the whole EU though.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 06:40:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 1)

DoDo:

10% renewables in transport? How exactly is that spelled out in the directives?

As we know, biofuels were initially a substantial part of that. But 10% biofuels at the current level of fuel consumption in road transport is not attainable.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 07:18:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

Indeed. I wonder if the biofuels part in the 10% RE in transport goal is explicit.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 07:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EREC EU policy conference (none / 0)

Luis de Sousa - "The 10 per cent agri-fuels target has been seriously undermined"

an agreement that up to almost a third of the EU's 10 percent goal would be met not through biofuels but through electric cars and trains

That's a quote from a report on last-minute negotiations between the EP and the Commission a year ago. So two-thirds of the 10% are still supposed to come from biofuels.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 24th, 2009 at 08:12:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

EREC EU policy conference | 53 comments (53 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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