CIA planned assassination in Germany | 73 comments (73 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

German > Spain (none / 1)

The Germans found no grounds in which they could prosecute, Darkazanli. Spain thought otherwise, but Germany decided that Spain would not allow their citizen to extradited to another EU state.

The determination not to extradite was made by bureaucrats outside of the courtroom.

So to understand the EU hierarchy of law, Germany's justice trumps Spain's justice.

Regarding Alouni, what kind of journalist becomes a courier for Abu Dahdah, moving $35,000 to Afghanistan, Turkey, and Chechnya?

by Magnifico on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German > Spain (4.00 / 2)

So to understand the EU hierarchy of law, Germany's justice trumps Spain's justice.

For the case of a German citizen or resident, or just someone who happens to be in Germany.

For the case of a Spanish citizen or resident, or someone who happens to be in Spain, Spain's justice trumps Germany's justice.

As it should be as long as there is not a federal European justice that trumps both.

The same is arguably true in the US. It would federal law to force states to recognise each other's arrest warrants and it is federal law enforcement that would force one state to hand over a person to another state. As well as there being a federal police force (the FBI) with the ability to carry out an arrest.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

EAW (none / 1)

So the EAW is not federal law of the EU?

by Magnifico on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (4.00 / 3)

It is, but it has to be 1) transposed into national legislation; 2) interpreted and applied by the courts of the member states; 3) enforced by the member states.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (none / 0)

Transposition into national legislation is not a trivial matter...

European Tribune - CIA planned assassination in Germany

Spokesman Martin Selmayr said the ruling did not declare the warrant unconstitutional, but merely the German national law that implements it.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 4th, 2009 at 05:33:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (none / 1)

The EU is not federal in the way the US is. And even the US was not always fully federal in terms of criminal law and justice. How long ago was it still possible to escape justice in certain cases by crossing a state line?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 4th, 2009 at 09:21:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (4.00 / 3)

Since Article 4, Section 2 was written, a long time ago. I think it was in the original, not added by amendment.

Section 2 - State citizens, Extradition

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 03:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (4.00 / 3)

The clause was in the original constitution, yet:

Extradition Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The meaning of the extradition clause was first really tested in the case of Kentucky v. Dennison [1860]. The case involved a man named Willis Lago who was wanted in Kentucky for helping a slave girl escape. He had fled to Ohio, where the governor, William Dennison, refused to extradite him back to Kentucky. In this case, the court ruled that, while it was the duty of a governor to return a fugitive to the state where the crime was committed, a governor could not be compelled through a writ of mandamus to do so.
Puerto Rico v. Branstad Main article: Puerto Rico v. Branstad
In 1987, the court reversed its decision under Dennison. The case involved an Iowan, Ronald Calder who struck a married couple near Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. The husband survived but the wife, who was eight months pregnant, did not. Following the incident, Calder was charged with murder and let out on bail. While on bail, Ronald Calder fled to his home-state of Iowa. In May 1981, the Governor of Puerto Rico submitted a request to the Governor of Iowa for extradition of Ronald Calder to face murder charges. The Governor of Iowa refused the request, forcing the Governor of Puerto Rico to file a writ of mandamus in the United States District Court for the Southern District of Iowa. The Court rejected it, ruling that under Kentucky v. Dennison, the Governor of Iowa was not obligated to return Calder. The United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit affirmed. The Supreme Court felt differently, ruling unanimously that the Federal Courts did indeed have the power to enforce a writ of mandamus and that Kentucky v. Dennison was outdated.

So it wasn't until 1987 that interstate extradition was cleared up without confusion or loopholes.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 04:14:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (none / 1)

Yes, I guess you could say the law didn't change, the Court did.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Dec 6th, 2009 at 05:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (none / 1)

What you can fairly say, it seems to me, is that, even with a clearly federal constitution, it took the US two centuries to clear up the extradition question in practice, since states were (still are, in some cases), jealous of their rights.

The EU doesn't have a federal constitution: it's composed of sovereign states. Extradition procedures bring sovereignty into play. Getting each member state to apply the same procedures may take a little time.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Dec 7th, 2009 at 02:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EAW (4.00 / 3)

Yes, the question was not the wording of the law but the evolving concept of Federalism. However, by the time the matter was settled by the court in 1987, the 1860 court ruling was considered archaic and not representative of accepted thought on the role of the Federal Government.

I went back, after you quoted from the decisions, and looked at the 1860 opinion, which made for interesting but strange reading. Given the political environment in 1860 and the nature of the case, it seems strange (to me) that the Court came down on the side of States rights. The issue that ultimately led to the Civil War was differing opinions (particularly by Lincoln) about the rights of States to secede. That right was apparently the primary one that caused Southern States to believe they could withdraw from the Union without conflict with the US central government. Even after secession the Southern States were extremely guarded of their sovereignty, an often contentious matter between individual States and the Confederate Government that had a serious bearing on the conduct of the war.

Surprizing that it took the US so long to arrive at a USSC decision this important. Thanks for your posts and patience.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Dec 7th, 2009 at 01:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German > Spain (4.00 / 4)

Germany's justice trumps Spain's justice.

Now you are really over the top. Read the EAW quotes I posted upthread.

what kind of journalist becomes a courier for Abu Dahdah

Read your own source. The accusation was that he brought money to al-Qaida, the defense claimed he brought money for widows. AFAIK there wasn't much evidence to support the first -- and the judgement is standing on shaky grounds. Unless you think anyone associating with a terrorist using a businessman's cover must be fully aware of him being a terrorist and all their dealings must be solely for the purpose of helping terrorism.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Widows in Syria (none / 1)

But yet the money was brought to Afghanistan, Turkey, and Chechnya. I didn't realize there was such a large number of expat Syrian widows. My mistake.

by Magnifico on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Widows in Syria (none / 1)

Sigh.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German > Spain (4.00 / 2)

what kind of journalist becomes a courier for Abu Dahdah

For what it's worth...

El Supremo rebaja de 27 a 12 años la pena a Abu Dahdah y absuelve a otros tres condenados · ELPAÍS.com		[Spain's] Supreme [Court] lowers the sentence of Abu Dahdah from 27 to 12 years and declares three others innocent - ElPais.com
La Audiencia Nacional en su sentencia, la primera que se dicta en España contra una célula de Al Qaeda, condenó a 18 de los 24 acusados e impuso la máxima pena, 27 años, al líder del grupo, Abu Dahdah. Para condenar a Abu Dahdah por el delito relacionado con el 11-S el Tribunal argumentó que éste "conocía los siniestros planes de inmediata ejecución" de los atentados en EE UU y "los asumió como propios, siendo puntualmente informado de los preparativos que antecedieron a los ataques perpetrados contra las Torres del World Trade Center de Nueva York y contra el Pentágono". Respecto a Alony, consideró probado que ayudó a varios miembros de Al Qaeda, a sabiendas de que lo eran, "para obtener de esos individuos exclusivas y enriquecedoras informaciones" sobre esta organización.		[Spain's] National Court in its sentence [now being appealed], the first given in Spain against an Al Qaeda cell, convicted 18 of the 24 defendants and imposed the highest penalty, 27 years, on the group's leader Abu DahDah. To sentence Abu Dahdah for the crime related to 9/11, the court argued that he "was aware of the sinister plans of imminent execution" for the strikes on the US and "assumed them as his own, being timely informed of the preparations preceding the attacks on the WTC towers in New York and on the Pentagon". Regarding Alouni, [the court] considered proven that he helped various Al Qaeda members, knowing that they were, "in order to obtain from these individuals exclusive and profitable informations" on the organization.
La Audiencia afirmó en su sentencia que Alony, el único periodista que consiguió entrevistar a Osama Bin Laden tras el 11-S, no pertenecía a la célula liderada por Abu Dahdah, pero que "colaboró" con este grupo ayudando "de manera determinante" a varios de sus miembros. ...		The [National] Court stated in their sentence that Alouni, the only journalist who succeeded in interviewing Osama Bin Laden after 9/11, didn't belong to the cell led by Abu Dahdah, but he "cooperated" with this group helping "in a decisive way" several of its members. ...

Deciding on this appeal, Spain's Supreme Court upheld the 7-year sentence on Alouni for collaborating with a terrorist organisation.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &gt; Spain (none / 1)

That was in 2006. Articles from back then wrote that Alouni's lawyer wants to go one higher to the European court -- but can't find anything newer in English- or German-language sources. Can you in Spanish?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:54:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;gt; Spain (none / 1)

That was the result of a search I conducted for news in ElPais.com about Alouni. The most recent one is this one, form 2006. El Pais even has a special aggregator page about him.

I see no reason why Alouni couldn't appeal to the European Court, but there seems to be nothing in the press about him after 2006.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 06:59:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;amp;gt; Spain (none / 1)

Then the same as elsewhere. In the meantime, I found however that there was to be an appeal to SPain's Constitutional Court, too -- that should come first doesn't it? They may refer to this in the sole post-2006 article I found now:

MFA Press Release Admin Page

June 27, 2008
...Mr Phil Lawrie, Al-Jazeera's head of global distribution...
...He withheld comment on Mr Alouni's case as it was still under appeal, but noted that Mr Al-Hajj was released last month without trial.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 07:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;amp;amp;gt; Spain (none / 1)

Yes, an appeal to the Constitutional Court would come first, but only on the grounds that Alouni's fundamental rights have been violated.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 3rd, 2009 at 07:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;amp;amp;gt; Spain (none / 1)

Alouni's lawyer lodged at least two redress appeals with the Constitutional Court before the Supreme Court decision, contesting the preventative prison decreed by the National Court as a violation of the rights to freedom and due process. The first was in January 2005 (referred to here), and the second was in January 2006. The second appeal was rejected by the Constitutional Court in March 2007 on the grounds that, after the Supreme Court upheld the previous conviction on appeal, there was no longer a situation of preventative prison subject to redress.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 4th, 2009 at 04:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;amp;amp;amp;gt; Spain (none / 1)

Which is to say, I can find information about decisions, but not about open cases, so I don't know anything about the appeal which your source claims was pending in 2008.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 4th, 2009 at 04:48:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;gt; Spain (none / 1)

Here is a newer one (though still preceding the June 2008 article). What is it oneabout? I couldn't make much sense of it with Google translate:

Sala Segunda. Sentencia 27/2008, de 11 de
febrero de 2008. Recurso de amparo 137-2006.
Promovido por don Taysir Alony Kate frente a
los Autos de la Sala de lo Penal de la Audiencia
Nacional que acordaron prorrogar su prisión
provisional hasta la mitad de la pena impuesta
por delito de colaboración con banda armada
(STC 152/2007).
Vulneración del derecho a la libertad personal:
prisión provisional mantenida con prórroga insuficientemente
motivada, mientras pendía recurso
contra la condena de instancia (STC 22/2004).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Dec 4th, 2009 at 05:23:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ruling on Alouni (none / 1)

Whoa.

This is about the second redress appeal above, and in this case the Constitutional Court rules that 1) Alouni's right to freedom was indeed violated; 2) the preventative prison decrees from October and November 2005 are overturned.

However, the Constitutional Count says it is up to the lower court to decide whether this means Alouni should be freed - and the actual conviction or its confirmation by the Supreme Court are not overturned so that persumably won't be the case.

So the damage Alouni is now ruled to have suffered is to have been imprisoned preventatively pending appeal of his first conviction by the National Court. The actual problem here is the slowness of the justice system. I wonder whether Alouni can now seek compensation...

This is not two rulings by the same court on the same case, but 1) an earlier procedural decision (Auto) that, given that the conviction was now upheld, Alouni couldn't be freed; a final sentence ruling on the substance of the appeal (Sentencia) which refers to the previous Auto in section I.5.

What should be interesting in this case are the "legal grounds" (fundamentos jurídicos) of the sentence, which become jurisprudence for future cases.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 4th, 2009 at 06:04:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &gt; Spain (none / 1)

So, likewise, maybe Darkazanli is more useful to Germany free than standing trial and serving time in Spain.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 03:25:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;gt; Spain (none / 0)

Huh!?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 03:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German &amp;amp;gt; Spain (none / 1)

I'm sure German, like US intelligence, can find uses for "connected" persons.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Dec 6th, 2009 at 05:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German Spain (4.00 / 2)

Stranded in Hamburg? What for?

But nevermind. As explained both upthread and downthread, it was the constitutional court who foiled the first extradiction resp. the (government-independent) Attorney General who killed the case in Germany (thereby foiling the second extradiction), while the politicians and local law enforcement were for it (and already booked his flight to Spain on the first instance).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Dec 6th, 2009 at 05:47:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German Spain (4.00 / 2)

It was just an off-the-cuff comment DoDo. In the US, intelligence has been accused occasionally of protecting certain bad boys who have agreed to do them favors - so to speak. Sometimes, they have, allegedly, been able to protect such persons from arrest.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Dec 6th, 2009 at 11:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

CIA planned assassination in Germany | 73 comments (73 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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