Life.....Without Parole w/ 2nd update | 39 comments (39 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: A statistic (none / 1)

China is a big place, and for all the progress there, a lot of it is still a third-world country. So statistics might be spotty.

But it breaks down when you look at urban/rural crime distribution in the US: Per capita, the rural states have somewhat more murders, rape, Bush voters and other dysfunctional behaviours than the urban ones. It's not a big effect, but it's there.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 03:24:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (4.00 / 3)

My theory has to do with advertising, and the percieved distance between the lifestyle people think they deserve and what they can actually aquire.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 09:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (none / 1)

There's a difference between crime rates and incarceration rates...

My guess would be that if you have a retributive legal system, you'll have more prisoners, and if you have a rehabilitative legal system, you'll have fewer. Not so much because crime levels will differ (they will, but surely not by a factor of five or ten), as because incarceration rates for the same crimes will differ. If you imprison people for possession of trivial amounts of hash or PCP, you'll have more people in prison than if you don't, even if usage may be lower (big "if" there, by the way).

As for crime rates, your model makes a lot of sense. Also, the feeling of improvement in one's lot in life (or at least not a deterioration), and the feeling that you can get ahead more reliably, if not necessarily faster, by not cheating than by cheating.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 09:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (4.00 / 4)

Robert Peel made the observation that deterrence is much more closely related to the certainty of apprehension than to the severity of punishment. He cited the ubiquity of pick-pockets, etc. at public hangings for those very crimes. Unfortunately, certainty of punishment is expensive to achieve so we settle for the appearance--a one to one correspondence between crimes committed and perpetrators convicted, with somewhat less concern that those convicted actually committed the crimes for which they were charged. Many in the system console themselves with the thought that the convicted were probably guilty of something. But then most of us are. This is why NN's work is so important, both the death penalty cases and the juvenile cases.

In the USA we mostly abandoned public executions by the 20th century. Unfortunately that did little to diminish the blood-lust that so many who attended such spectacles experienced. Instead, that lust has driven the clamor for maintenance of the death penalty. It remains our unacknowledged worship of the God of Death.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 01:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (4.00 / 2)

ARGeezer:

worship of the God of Death.

if there's one thing worse than a fanatic, it's a thanatic.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 02:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (none / 0)

Which god do you worship?

There were 23,326 cases of murder and non negligent homicide, in the US during 1994, 21,606 in 1995, 19,645 in 1996, 18,209 in 1997, 16,914 in 1998, 15,522 in 1999, 15,517 in 2000, 16,037 in 2001, 16,204 in 2002, 16,528 in 2003, 16,148 in 2004, 16,692 in 2005, 17,034 in 2006, and 15,872 in 2007. That's 225,164 persons sentenced to death by their "peers" with no due process whatsoever over a 14 year period.

Since 1976, 17 States have executed no one, 11 States have executed 1-3 persons, 3 have executed 4-6 persons. Only two States have executed over 100 persons in the last 32 years. Virginia with 103 and Texas with 431. Less than 1200 persons in all were executed in the US following trials and generally lengthy appeals processes over the past 32 years.

One can imagine which circumstance the god of death would consider the greater offering. Maybe its the belief that the symbolic consent and involvement of the masses during State executions leads to eternal damnation of all those responsible vs. just the one soul that commits murder.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 04:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (4.00 / 2)

An interesting observation, Gringo, though I would re-cast it more as "Through which aspect or incarnation of the God of Death do you prefer to worship?" While some might console themselves with the thought that they have no responsibility for those 225,164 deaths, that surely is also at best a comforting illusion. But I have little confidence that the death penalty has much deterrent effect.

My own crazy recommendation would be to restructure our society in such ways as would reduce violence between its members. Increase the peace. Anyone who truly believes that they can fully insulate themselves and those they love from the violence endemic to US society is deluding themselves. Those who do not care about the violence because they think they are insulated are of dubious moral integrity.

Our economy seems set up always to be dominated by some of the most rapacious among us and organized mostly to facilitate their rapacity. In my view one of the chief manifestations of that rapacity is through "trickle down" violence. That is what we need to change. Focusing on policing the final manifestations of that violence only serves to contain it to some degree. Policing will never really succeed in greatly reducing violence, IMO. And then the sensational violence serves to distract from the rapacity at the top.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 05:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (none / 0)

I think you see the issues properly. I also doubt that the death penalty, as presently prescribed in the US, has much to do with either preventing or contributing to the large numbers of homicides that plague American society. In order for it to have much preventative effect, if in fact it ever would, it would likely have to be pursued with such a vengence (no pun intended) that would allow even less care and attention to due process. That said, with the exception of scattered instances, I don't see Americans as taking much joy from executions.

In situations like this I like to remind myself, and others who will listen, of those who have paid the ultimate price for society's shortcomings, the horrifyingly large numbers of our fellow man who have become the victims of senseless killings. We owe them more than casual mention.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 06:03:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (4.00 / 4)

No study I'm aware of shows any beneficial effect of homicide rate by death penalty. It doesn't deter the crimes of passion, for obvious reasons, and those who plan it think they have planned well enough to get away with it. Mostly, though, it doesn't operate on the criminal mentality which is largely immune to cause and effect arguments.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 08:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (4.00 / 3)

I've seen a few studies favoring the death penalty, as a deterrent but they like most of the others for or against are not that convincing in and of themselves. I agree, crimes of passion (whatever that means beyond the court-room definition) - would not be deterred.

Thank you for this diary. I intended to reply directly to your personal experiences earlier, but my reply was wiped clean by a malfunctioning electrical system - so I gave up. I quit a career in law enforcement years ago owing in large part to some of the frustrations and depression you feel so I do respect your continuing in the field of criminal justice for so long under such conditions.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Mar 1st, 2009 at 12:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (4.00 / 2)

That's been my thought too for years. Why is there relatively little violent crime in some places where everyone is poor? In China's cities, back in the 80s and earlier, I'm told that if you dropped money or something valuable on the street people would chase you down to return it. Most everyone was just honest and wouldn't take advantage of anyone else to improve their own lot even a little.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 03:14:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A statistic (none / 0)

I think that there has been an explosion in crime rates in Bhutan, since the introduction of TV, moralists blame the program content, but I still stick with my theory.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 at 04:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Life.....Without Parole w/ 2nd update | 39 comments (39 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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