Muslims in Germany | 93 comments (93 topical, editorial, 3 hidden)

Re: Generalisation alert (2.00 / 3)

There´s indeed an irony here, and that is that you talk of Jews as if they were an ethnic or a race, basically accepting the Nazi propaganda.

by marsanges on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 06:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Generalisation alert (none / 1)

goodbye.

by rootless2 on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Generalisation alert (none / 0)

What was the rating for?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 06:06:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Generalisation alert (none / 1)

For such a blatantly dishonest, malign, rhetorical trick.

by rootless2 on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 09:10:33 AM EST
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Re: Generalisation alert (none / 0)

Why is it a blatantly dishonest, malign, rhetorical trick? And why is 'you're upset, proving I'm right' not one?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 11:27:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Generalisation alert (4.00 / 2)

Because European Jews as an ethnic minority is not a concept invented by Nazis and to claim that by implicitly accepting that concept I've agreed with the Nazis is to use a dishonest rhetorical trick common to racists worldwide.

by rootless2 on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 01:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 1)

Deafness often seen on this site. Too busy looking at belly buttons.

If you must have it spelled out, it's not often a non-Jew writes anything but a few standard yiddish phrases. And then, even. So, when you get a person who is citing something in yiddish called basically a nazi, we get to the height of a certain level of nombrilism I seldom see but here. Keep it up guys, you're making this site look completely respectful of minoritries! (A few excepted, of course...)

And, to top off the extreme tone-deafness, Dodo keeps at it, wondering however could it be that one such person, so far very enjoyably subtle in his or her pokes, would find it offensive to be crudely called a nazi.

It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 02:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 1)

Most white gentile europeans agree that there is no more racism and anti-semitism in Europe.

And who would know better?

by rootless2 on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 02:55:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (4.00 / 4)

rootless2:

Most white gentile europeans agree that there is no more racism and anti-semitism in Europe.

Nonsense. Yes, there is racism and antisemitism in Europe. But most "white gentile Europeans" agree racism and antisemitism no longer exist?

That kind of assertion needs evidence to back it up.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 09:03:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

It's an interesting question given the unchallenged assertion to start this line of discussion.

My assertion is based on purely anecdotal evidence of my own experience and what I hear from other non-gentile visitors to or inhabitants of Europe. One of my former students, a Moroccan, who lives in Germany told me that he's learned to speak english when meeting people in order to get treated as an American instead of a Turk. I've repeated this story to a number of white european liberals and always get the same hostile response. None of the jews/arabs/turks/africans in Europe I've told this story to finds it at all surprising.

I also base it on the very angry defensive response here to criticism of Jostien Garder's anti-semitic op-ed.

by rootless2 on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 02:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

OK, I'mgoing to look like a nitpicker again, for redstar to get his rocks off jibing at, but what do you understand by gentile?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 02:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

"As in the King James Bible, from the 17th century onwards gentile was most commonly used to refer to non-Jews. This was in the context of European Christian societies with a Jewish minority."

Wikipedia. Are we conducting a class on the English language here?

Just to forestall what I guess, perhaps incorrectly, as the probable next move in this gambit, belief or non-belief is not material.

by rootless2 on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 03:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

I thought gentile meant non-Jew but are you using it in the meaning of Christian by referring to a Moroccan Muslim as a non-gentile? Or am I assuming the Moroccan is Muslim when he's Jewish?

I'm an atheist - am I Gentile (non-Jew) or non-Gentile (non-Christian)? Or am I Christian because I was baptised?

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 03:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

Well, what I wrote was "Most white gentile europeans agree that there is no more racism and anti-semitism in Europe."

The Moroccan fellow I was discussing was neither white nor european.

But "gentile" is, of course, a context dependent word. Mormons use it for non-mormons. I don't think the way "gentile" is used historically in discussing European/Jewish/Christian divisions would include Morrocans, but ...

My point was that people in the normative/dominant cultural group don't see the same world that people in other groups see.

by rootless2 on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 03:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 1)

what I wrote was "Most white gentile europeans agree that there is no more racism and anti-semitism in Europe."

I was reacting to what I hear from other non-gentile visitors to or inhabitants of Europe.

To be honest, the expression "non-gentile" sounds to me like "non-barbarian" or "non-gaijin".

My point was that people in the normative/dominant cultural group don't see the same world that people in other groups see.

No debate from me there.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 03:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

To be honest, the expression "non-gentile" sounds to me like "non-barbarian" or "non-gaijin".

Everyone is someone else's foreigner.

by rootless2 on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 04:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

rootless2:

But "gentile" is, of course, a context dependent word. Mormons use it for non-mormons. I don't think the way "gentile" is used historically in discussing European/Jewish/Christian divisions would include Morrocans, but ...

So "gentile means whatever I want it to mean"?

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 05:42:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

No. But in this discussion I am using it in the common way to refer to christian culture Europeans.

by rootless2 on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 04:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (none / 0)

Then you should say Christian-culture Europeans because "the usual meaning" is "non-Jew" as far as I can tell.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 05:10:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exhibit A of the extreme tone- (4.00 / 2)

"Most white gentile europeans agree that there is no more racism and anti-semitism in Europe."

Which is still unsubstantiated. They might not be aware of it's extent, they might not have felt it themselves, they might claim they weren't racist or anti-Semitic in spite of behaviour, but I don't know how many would say there wasn't racism or anti-semitism in Europe. There quite clearly is, just like there is in the US, or Russia, or the Middle East or Israel.

My point was that people in the normative/dominant cultural group don't see the same world that people in other groups see.

And neither sees the real world - both groups tend to have distorted perceptions.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2009 at 03:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Generalisation alert (4.00 / 8)

Jews are rather obviously an ethnicity. They are equally obviously a race. In the first case because a pretty large number of Jews see themselves that way, in the latter, to the extent that antisemitism exists, they're a race.

Race is largely defined by others - e.g. Black americans are a race because society sees them that way.

Ethnicity is mainly a question of self-identification - e.g. African Americans are an ethnic group because they say so.

Note that it is definitely not necessary to be racist to understand a group as a race - it can be merely and acknowledgement of social reality. Thus for example, Jews aren't really a race in the US, at least in the NE (the part I'm familiar with) but they certainly are in Poland.

by MarekNYC on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 06:44:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Muslims in Germany | 93 comments (93 topical, 0 editorial, 3 hidden)

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