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UK is the size of one small Indian state as well as France. Why they occupy SC seat and dictate their often than not mischievous will to outside world?

Only because they were in the right place in the right time. After second world war UK courtesy US got SC permanent seat and France which was actually fascist vishist state was rewarded because US and UK thought by promoting de Gaulle they will diminish Soviet influence in UN.

So right now the outside world is crying for injustice committed by UN, its lack of legitimacy but Westerners continue hypocrisy. How on Earth UK and France two countries with meagre population and oversized banking systems which recently (in historical terms)emerged from caves and barbarity could dare to censure Sri Lanka for successful finish of terrorist organisation run by Prabhakaran and likes. Sri Lanka has many thousands of written history after all unlike above mentioned countries. That's why Indian PM Manmohan Singh recently lashed out at UN SC, G8 and G20, IMF etc and said these all organisation simply lack legitimacy.

It's time for French and British to face reality they cannot deceive the whole world for ever.
 

by FarEasterner on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 11:30:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Power is not about justice or population or even about the SC, which after is not very relevant except as a way to get popular support of ones actions. It will become even less relevant if it doesn't change to take rising powers, like India, into account. As India wants to be seen as a Great Power, India has been developing... nuclear weapons.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 11:43:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Power is not about

But what is it about? I tried to ponder that with you upthread.

not very relevant except as a way to get popular support of ones actions.

No, not only. It also influences the reactions of other states' governments. Both synchronously, and in the future when the power balance shifts. Powers that swung around their big stick too ruthlessly not rarely earned some form of cruel revenge once weakened...

As India wants to be seen as a Great Power, India has been developing... nuclear weapons.

And, did they ain an SC seat? Or economic dominance? Or a diplomatic role in more external conflicts than before? Or even, more red carpets rolled out, other than from the now gone US neocons? Or... what projections of power are you interested in?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 12:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is power about? Power is the ability to get other people to do things they don't wan't to do.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 02:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, again, back to square one: what do you want to make other people to do as a Great Power?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 02:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not really the question. I certainly don't want to make other states do this or that, but states want to do that. And their ideas on what they want to do with their power are certainly variable, though they are likely to be centered on securing prosperity, security and prestige.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 03:16:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The state transcends the people who populate, staff and govern it?

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 05:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then; re your title, what do you think Britain wants to make other states do that needs Tridents?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 07:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Take it seriously?

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 08:27:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so in other words India, Brazil, South Africa or Indonesia and many others should just claim their legitimate place in the world and start to behave like Great Powers do. I hope India will not give up its refusal to sign NPT and CBT because these were discriminatory treaties - why UK or France retained their rights to test and arm themselves with nuclear weapons at the same time vigorously deny them to all others?
by FarEasterner on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 09:25:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FarEasterner:
That's why Indian PM Manmohan Singh recently lashed out at UN SC, G8 and G20, IMF etc and said these all organisation simply lack legitimacy.
But the little complex-laden men we have running Western states like exclusive summits where they can feel important.

As I said in April

France's prima donna President has a decidedly negative effect on EU governance at the moment. Not only does he hijack existing initiatives to the greater glory of Sarko only to drop them when the photo-op has been obtained, but he also has fostered a culture where there is a directoire of a few large (and conservative) governments hashing out EU policy with Barroso and then ramming it through the EU Council. Even mid-sized states are not happy.

EurActiv: Big member states 'backing out of EU', warns Hungary FM (27 April 2009 )

Balázs, who is a former EU commissioner, said that large member states were looking to "strengthen" the role of other institutions as alternative decision-making fora.

The foreign minister said Germany had been working "to seize economic institutions and to strengthen the G20" since 2007.

In line with views recently expressed by Belgian Foreign Minister Karel de Gucht (EurActiv 21/04/09), he argued that the aim of such actions was to leave smaller EU member states "behind", with larger members preferring to deal with states that have "similar influence and weight".

and EU increasingly governed by the few, Belgian FM warns (21 April 2009)
With just a year to go until the Belgian EU Presidency, the country's foreign minister denounced the functioning of the Union, which he said is increasingly governed by an "executive board of big countries".

Speaking on Monday (20 April) at the opening of an annual diplomatic conference in Brussels, Karel de Gucht said Belgium would make full use of its presidency in the second half of 2010 to re-establish the EU institutional balance, which he said was in "danger".

"It is absolutely unacceptable that small groups of member states put in danger the normal institutional process," de Gucht said. "Belgium has the duty of trying as quickly as possible to re-establish the institutional balance."

The recent G8 summit was just a joke.


The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 12:07:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The foreign minister said Germany had been working "to seize economic institutions and to strengthen the G20" since 2007.

...and doing so with full support of all Grand Coalition parties, I shall add. (Not that Schröder's instincts were any better in the preceding SPD rule.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 12:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FarEasterner:
After second world war... France which was actually fascist vishist state

After WWII??

UK and France two countries with meagre population and oversized banking systems which recently (in historical terms)emerged from caves and barbarity

Indeed, all humanity only recently emerged from caves (I would be so sure about barbarity...). Or do you mean compared to more advanced civilisations? Then, which ones?

This, together with your comment about Europe lagging behind Asia in the XVIIth century makes me think you should improve your knowledge of European history...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 08:29:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Typo: wouldn't be so sure...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 08:31:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for the population size part; such undemocratic global influence, originating from colonialism, is indeed disgusting. However, from the persective of even smaller countries, the jockeying of large countries for memberships in exclusive clubs of the powerful who'd lord around the rest of the world is just as disgusting, be those countries France or India.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 08:46:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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